Companies address labor shortages by pursuing current or former prisoners • Hacker News Board

Re: Companies address labor shortages by pursuing current or former prisoners

#61

Post by Ntrails » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #44

tux3 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has slavery not been abolished in Northern America? If not, shouldn't slavery be a pretty hot political issue? Wikipedia says things like the death penalty still exists in half of US states, but I don't know the numbers for states using captive workers.

> If not, shouldn't slavery be a pretty hot political issue? :) You'd think, right? It's not exactly a niche issue, there are plenty of people talking about it. But once you get fully into the mainstream, the issue seems to just fall off completely. There's a real apathy in America about how our prison system works, and not just apathy on the Right, mainstream Democrats talk about modern-day slavery in prison way les…

> I'm not sure if it's a messaging thing, or if culturally we're just primed not to care.

I think that lots of people don't give much of a shit about prison experiences. The classic maybe you shouldn't have committed crime in the first place, let that be a lesson to you etc.

Prison is supposed (in many peoples view, irrespective of stated aims in law) to be a deterrent. Not Fun. Breaking rocks and digging ditches and not having cable tv etc fits that mould.

So I guess you'd want to change that pretty ingrained cultural precept? Personally I'd rather pitch "prisons should be safe, comfortable, clean" over "no more modern slavery" - feels like an easier sell.

Re: Companies address labor shortages by pursuing current or former prisoners

#62

Post by mjburgess » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 3:43 PM UTC

jhcxfjnv wrote: post #57

danShumway wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If not, shouldn't slavery be a pretty hot political issue? :) You'd think, right? It's not exactly a niche issue, there are plenty of people talking about it. But once you get fully into the mainstream, the issue seems to just fall off completely. There's a real apathy in America about how our prison system works, and not just apathy on the Right, mainstream Democrats talk about modern-day slavery in prison way les…

There's plenty of political will for prison reform, even on "the right" (I consider myself a conservative, God forbid) and the state of US prisons is embarrassing But the Democrats' solution is to defund local PDs, which will leave a vacuum that can be filled by Federal agents that are more loyal to Washington than local cops Naturally, this "defund the police" message takes the air out of serious criminal justice re…

>But the Democrats' solution is to defund local PDs

I think you should distinguish "democrats" the vast vast vast majority of which are conservative (in the sense of conserve), from far-left radicals.

Even among the far-left, the idea of actually defunding police is essentially offered only by a fraction of pseudo-revolutionaries.

Re: Companies address labor shortages by pursuing current or former prisoners

#63

Post by mjburgess » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 3:44 PM UTC

edoceo wrote: post #24

No labor shortage. It's a wage shortage. I'm certain if the pay went up, there would be applicants.

How does pay go up?

You assume there's an infinite profit margin available for decreasing.

Many industries operate at a few percent profit.

Re: Companies address labor shortages by pursuing current or former prisoners

#64

Post by ggggtez » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 3:48 PM UTC

tux3 wrote: post #32

pessimizer wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People still can't afford to work jobs that won't pay for their food and shelter. Prisoners, or any other slaves, are a great solution.

Has slavery not been abolished in Northern America? If not, shouldn't slavery be a pretty hot political issue? Wikipedia says things like the death penalty still exists in half of US states, but I don't know the numbers for states using captive workers.

Prison labor is the rule rather than the exception. In many states, prisons are also run by for-profit companies.

Occasionally it's mentioned on some show like Jon Oliver, but there isn't the political willpower to solve this clear abuse since it would cost more money.

Re: Companies address labor shortages by pursuing current or former prisoners

#65

Post by ggggtez » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

jhcxfjnv wrote: post #57

danShumway wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If not, shouldn't slavery be a pretty hot political issue? :) You'd think, right? It's not exactly a niche issue, there are plenty of people talking about it. But once you get fully into the mainstream, the issue seems to just fall off completely. There's a real apathy in America about how our prison system works, and not just apathy on the Right, mainstream Democrats talk about modern-day slavery in prison way les…

There's plenty of political will for prison reform, even on "the right" (I consider myself a conservative, God forbid) and the state of US prisons is embarrassing But the Democrats' solution is to defund local PDs, which will leave a vacuum that can be filled by Federal agents that are more loyal to Washington than local cops Naturally, this "defund the police" message takes the air out of serious criminal justice re…

As far as I know, defund the police isn't proposed as a solution to this problem. Police don't run the prisons. Maybe the two are connected, due to high incarceration rates being used to balance budgets, but afaik there are other solutions proposed like simply ending private prisons.

Re: Companies address labor shortages by pursuing current or former prisoners

#66

Post by loves_mangoes » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 3:54 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #62

jhcxfjnv wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of political will for prison reform, even on "the right" (I consider myself a conservative, God forbid) and the state of US prisons is embarrassing But the Democrats' solution is to defund local PDs, which will leave a vacuum that can be filled by Federal agents that are more loyal to Washington than local cops Naturally, this "defund the police" message takes the air out of serious criminal justice re…

>But the Democrats' solution is to defund local PDs I think you should distinguish "democrats" the vast vast vast majority of which are conservative (in the sense of conserve), from far-left radicals. Even among the far-left, the idea of actually defunding police is essentially offered only by a fraction of pseudo-revolutionaries.

If I may play devil's public relation for a second,

>Even among the far-left, the idea of actually defunding police is essentially offered only by a fraction of pseudo-revolutionaries.

My twitter feed paints a different picture, I have a swath of people who would interpret the "defund the police" slogan as: "funding mental health, local services, and so on, through cuts to the police budget, military-style equipment, and such", and much less of the "abolish the police" anarchistic far-left sentiment you've perceived.

Their movement seems to have a hard time distancing themselves from their more extreme members, and that is a plentiful source of people talking past each other, which does little to elevate the level of debate.

Love.

Re: Companies address labor shortages by pursuing current or former prisoners

#67

Post by xboxnolifes » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 3:58 PM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #11

perfunctory wrote: post #3

> ... as bosses refuse to raise wages to attract employees I see UBI as a very elegant solution to this problem. It levels the playing field for everybody. The problem with the current job market is that the negotiation power is not symmetrical.

> I see UBI as a very elegant solution to this problem. To which problem? A UBI will obviously mean more income for those stuck in low wage jobs. But a UBI will definitely not help attract employees to low wage positions. In fact, I think the increased unemployment benefits during Covid proved that if people have some sort of UBI payment, they are not going to work low wage jobs (hence the labor shortage).

> In fact, I think the increased unemployment benefits during Covid proved that if people have some sort of UBI payment, they are not going to work low wage jobs (hence the labor shortage).

I don't think this is true. I am also of the opinion that UBI would decrease demand for low wage jobs, but I do not believe that the increased unemployment benefits due to COVID proves this. The increased unemployment benefits have an income cliff where they go away, so it is possible to return to work and end up making less than (or very close to) what you were making from unemployment. I certainly know a few people who would make barely any more money from returning to work compared to the unemployment benefits they receive.

Re: Companies address labor shortages by pursuing current or former prisoners

#68

Post by anthony_d » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 4:00 PM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #52

anthony_d wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"She" is one person making an throw away comment. Hardly proof that "It doesn't work that way".

California recently had to new pass a law allowing prisoners to keep working in the same industry they were working in while incarcerated[0]. Before that, they legally weren't allowed to continue working in the same industry after they were released. And even that law doesn't actually give them the right to continue to work, it just gives a subset of them the right to petition to continue to be allowed to work -- it'…

Thanks for posting the link. It looks like a ridiculous case that clearly needs fixed. Completely agree our prison system is not working well.

My problem is the older I get the more complicated I realize everything is. It's easy to see flaws but fixes are overwhelmingly complicated.

I think it's stupid (and bad for society) to ban someone from some employment based on an unrelated crime. It drives down supply of employees, which should trigger increases in pay. Like you said, this law is a band-aid; it doesn't fix the problem (restricted employment) and it side-steps the natural counter to the problem (increasing salaries). Why not fix whatever says firefighters can't have criminal records? Why aren't normal economic pressures sufficient?

I also don't want to disregard criminal records completely, e.g. I wouldn't ever want to hire Bernie Madoff as an investment advisor (even if he were still alive). For me it's an issue of whether the crime is relevant and that's really hard to say sometimes.

Re: Companies address labor shortages by pursuing current or former prisoners

#69

Post by danShumway » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #62

jhcxfjnv wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of political will for prison reform, even on "the right" (I consider myself a conservative, God forbid) and the state of US prisons is embarrassing But the Democrats' solution is to defund local PDs, which will leave a vacuum that can be filled by Federal agents that are more loyal to Washington than local cops Naturally, this "defund the police" message takes the air out of serious criminal justice re…

>But the Democrats' solution is to defund local PDs I think you should distinguish "democrats" the vast vast vast majority of which are conservative (in the sense of conserve), from far-left radicals. Even among the far-left, the idea of actually defunding police is essentially offered only by a fraction of pseudo-revolutionaries.

Right. I don't say this to disparage or dismiss people who do want to defund the police, I don't want to shut down that conversation, but that's also not what most mainstream Democrats believe. The idea is remarkably unpopular offline.

Even something that (in my mind) should be pretty uncontroversial like getting rid of cash bail is considered a radical idea by a lot of people as soon as you step off of Twitter.

Biden ran on increasing police budgets, and won the primary pretty handily. People have a misplaced view of how Left the Democratic electorate (and most of the people who get elected) actually are.

Re: Companies address labor shortages by pursuing current or former prisoners

#70

Post by FooBarBizBazz » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

brightstep wrote: post #47

FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #27

> people currently or formerly in prison First of all, this lumps two groups together. Second, isn't it kind of "good" if employers become more willing to hire people with criminal records? They have a hell of a time finding jobs, which gets in the way of social reintegration. > a Waste Management Services executive discussed hiring immigrants to fill commercial driver’s license positions Oh no! Hiring immigrants ! .…

They're not willing to hire ex-cons for full pay and benefits. These prisoners are essentially slaves, no freedom, no benefits, no time off, barely any pay.

I see that now:

> In New York City, construction industry employers recruit recently released prisoners who must seek and maintain employment as a condition of their release from prison.

Why can't an ex-con go bum off their family? Or become a mendicant holy man? Or become a novelist, who in 9/10 cases is just unemployed, but in 1/10 earns money off "My Life in Lockup: The Joe Blow Story" (popular in the prison library)? We should be making formal employment less necessary, not more.