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Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

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Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is ridiculous. I would prefer being at my current job, leverage my tribal experience to build things (and I have specific things on my mind) better and faster. If I pitch this to my CTO, he will agree that using my knowledge to build things better and faster aligns with business goals. Only middle management rationalizes theories such as you proposed. Middle management sometimes just forgets what is the goal of…

It's not necessarily "ridiculous". AFAIK in US is typical to change SWE job every few years (those 2-3 years indeed). Those who succeed in doing this consistently (I'm not implying one should, or not) ganerally end up with a high salary, a higher position, and more satisfaction (assuming that change give them satisfaction). Parent's observation may be a reasonable explanation when looked into context - the time to mo…

> Parent's observation may be a reasonable explanation when looked into context - the time to move on arrives after 2-3 years, and if there's no strong incentive, devs will start to feal uneasy, and move on.

This is like saying, "Making people drive slower will reduce total number of accidents. So lets just reduce all speed limits to 25 miles an hour. It's only the obvious solution right?".

This kind of lazy thinking is called incompetence, because finding really good balanced solutions is actually work. This work involves observing problems, understanding root causes, piloting and experimenting, bringing other mangers, skips and CXOs into alignment, executing retention deftly while keeping reports happy. But this is too much work for managers (but of course too much work for engineers is never too much work).

What a joke! No wonder SWEs complain so much about management.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#42
A few interesting thoughts in here. I had tended to think of the social stigma against discussing salaries as being detrimental to workers and probably encouraged by companies to save a few bucks. But on the flip side, if a company was to be scrupulously honest and made their best effort to pay according to actual value to the company and let everyone know openly how much that was, I expect there would be a lot of drama and hurt feelings over evaluations of exactly who was contributing how much. Maybe it's best to let those sleeping dogs lie after all.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is ridiculous. I would prefer being at my current job, leverage my tribal experience to build things (and I have specific things on my mind) better and faster. If I pitch this to my CTO, he will agree that using my knowledge to build things better and faster aligns with business goals. Only middle management rationalizes theories such as you proposed. Middle management sometimes just forgets what is the goal of…

> For example, I genuinely don't know if software developers have more of an impact than the product designers Explains why this mentality exists. Middle management cannot see the impact.

Truly, sometimes I wonder if ICs should be allowed to fire managers if managers can't see what brings value.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think it's an organizational failure, even if folks aren't "growing" after 36 months, I definitely think there's institutional knowledge they have that helps them be more effective... the more time that elapses, the more of that institutional knowledge is lost and not documented. Obviously it's not great to have companies hanging on by the thread of a single person's knowledge over 10 years, but I feel like a…

> but I feel like at a lot of companies (especially smaller companies), this is the reality. Exactly. There are many small companies that will be far more impacted be one of their 2 developers leaving than they would be by the owner being hit by a bus, but they'll still balk at raising salaries.

Well market dynamics over the long term should take care of companies that short sighted. They will be outcompeted by others that are better at building organizational capacity.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#47
Many companies do pay for people to stay, but its debatable if its worth it.

The last company I worked for gave me significant golden handcuffs. Probably 30-40% more than I could get elsewhere. They had a "cost of replacement player" policy, where they count the cost of hiring, sourcing, training over the years, etc, and come up with a number thats almost always way above market rate for people who have been around a bit.

Attrition was lower than industry average...but not by much. The reality is that in big tech, salaries are high enough that people stop caring. People left for a variety of reasons, the most common one being "I want to see how it is elsewhere" (especially from college hires who have been at the company several years). Others leave because they want to work at a startup. Some leave to join their friends. Some because they move to follow a significant other who got a job elsewhere (many prefer offices over WFH, so offering that only helps so much).

In the end, again, retention is higher, but when you crunch the numbers, its very debatable if it's worth it for the company. Worse, sometimes companies end up "competing" over it, so even if you pay a lot, the next one offers more because they know your salary bracket, then you raise yours until one gives. That sounds great for the employee but there are budgets and limits at some point.

And then there's the topic of counter offers. The uncomfortable truth is that there's very significant demographic differences when it comes to folks who use the "I got an offer elsewhere, pay me more and Ill stay". If you give counter offers when that happens (as opposed to across the board bracket increase), you quickly end up with statistically significant discrepancies, and that's not ok.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#48
post #11

To chime in with my own anecdotal opinion that is likely to anger some people... in my experience most developers do their best work after about 6-8 months of starting a job at a new company, and that comes to an end after about 24-36 months of working at the same company. After that the vast majority of people just stagnate, get complacent, the job stops being interesting to them and they move on. After observing th…

Yes, it takes about 6m in a medium to big organizations to figure out what to do and with whom you have to speek to get stuff done. And for 2 years everything is rosy. Then you speak with you colleagues that changed jobs and find out that their income is 30% to 40% higher. That will, of course, put a downer on your day/week/quarter/year. You have 2 options, speak with your current company about compensation or leave. I tried the first option (admittently a bit late, but I did mention the problem in our review talks and other talks) after I found out that my income was 40% lower than colleagues that left 1 year before (was 3 years and a half at this company and had top marks every year, big company, a lot of cash to throw around). I was offered a measly 5% after being dragged in 4 meetings about how great I am. Left and almost doubled my income in 2 years. This is all anecdotal, but I hear it from everyone around me, you HAVE TO SWITCH jobs every 2 years, you can stretch to 3, maybe. Of course, during the last years you won't deliver as much, you have to prepare for intervews and such. This was of no benefit for the previous company. Over my 4 years there I've seen how we were bleeding knowledge that we never got back. The company didn't do so well, the thing I worked on just died after everyone left 6m after me. It's a shame, it could've been a nice thing compared with what I see offered by the competition.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#49
post #11

To chime in with my own anecdotal opinion that is likely to anger some people... in my experience most developers do their best work after about 6-8 months of starting a job at a new company, and that comes to an end after about 24-36 months of working at the same company. After that the vast majority of people just stagnate, get complacent, the job stops being interesting to them and they move on. After observing th…

I'm not fully convinced that this is just about the devs. 2-3 years is also about how long it takes for a nascent project to transition into a mature one, and when that happens the culture and energy of the team tends to shift. The same dev that thrives in one setting might end up out of place in the other.

I think in tech 2-3 years is also about how long it takes for one's mental model of how the world works to become stale and outdated, usually coinciding with other projects (that had been too nascent to use) maturing.

I remember that in my peak webdev years in 2008, you built webapps by designing the HTML, converting it to templates, filling in data with Django or Rails, and then adding judicious interactivity with JQuery. By 2011 the world had moved on to Angular and SPAs, and you built webapps as a single HTML page and large JS bundle with a bunch of components that you'd fetch data for over AJAX. By 2013 the world moved on to React, and you had all these tools (Gulp, Grunt, Bower, NPM, etc.) to automate packaging and code-reuse. In 2015 people were still using React and more mature versions of these tools, but what changed was the economic reality that you could make lots of money as a webdev, and the industry itself was maturing with demand for new apps dying out.

I'm witnessing this with my team at work too. We have an "old guard" of leadership that joined the team in its peak years in 2018/2019, and learned (and often wrote) the tech stack as it existed then. Now our team is colliding with infrastructure efforts that started elsewhere in the company and were too immature to use last year, but are now starting to bear fruition and get widespread adoption throughout the org. People who were experts in the old way of doing things find that their skills and projects are now largely irrelevant.

Re: Why don't tech companies pay their engineers to stay?

#50
post #39

Maybe in FAANG world, salaries really do increase linearly like the graphs from the blog showed, but in the F500 corporate and contracting world, the slope starts leveling out after 10 years of experience. A decent and ambitious dev can definitely gain 30% salary increases after their first few jumps, but once you're at the "senior" level, it's just not happening. In the first 5-6 years of my career, I jumped about 4…

> in the F500 corporate and contracting world Why are you stuck with this world if there's a clear ceiling? > at best I'm going to get a salary offer of maybe $180K If you get a $20k increase every 2 years starting from $160k by hopping jobs, that's way more than your yearly 2%. If you're in the right location, the only risk is to quit a job 2 months in because it's actually not what you expected and come back to a c…

> If you get a $20k increase every 2 years starting from $160k by hopping jobs, that's way more than your yearly 2%.

This isn't how it works. The $180K is the max I could get in my industry, and that's because the previous max in 2014 or so of $140K (which I did get) is basically tied to inflation or about 2.5%-3%. So while I've been getting 1.5%-2% raises for 7-8 years, I've been missing out on that extra 1.5%, which is where the extra $20K comes from that other companies might offer.

But if I took a job at $180K, I'm again up against the salary ceiling in my city and industry. There is no $20K raise to be had after another 1-2 years by jumping again. At best, I might get the full inflation rate raises, instead of being lowballed by a percent or two, and which the difference accumulates to a large $20K or so jump only after 6-7 years more.

> There's also a risk staying in the same company for very long: if you keep doing the same, using the same tech, you can become complacent and your skills irrelevant. At which point staying at your company is not really a choice anymore.

This is definitely true at most corporate tech departments. However, in the contracting world you can jump around to completely different projects and learn a lot of new technologies. So in that sense, I feel I'm okay. The big issue is that you're not exposed to best practices and large scales that you'd see at FAANG. But it's not as bad as being stuck on a single codebase in a single language and framework with a single CI pipeline for 7 years.

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