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South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

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Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#101

Post by bobthepanda »

rjzzleep wrote: post #77
3pt14159 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One core issue is housing. And the core issue with housing is that prices are an arms race where everyone always wants more. Most people would have two or three kids if they felt like they could afford it. The second core issue is modern dating. That one I don't know how to fix, but the essential issue there is the dynamics of dating not requiring commitment coupled with financial security for women mean long term pa…

I don't know about South Korea, but looking at some other asian countries, there are a couple of things, I think the housing part falls into number 3 but is only a small part of the whole: 1. Having children without being married has a bunch of problems, and in some countries like singapore gets punished for it in lack of certain social services 2. Most of these societies expect women to work or have their husband ta…

> Having children is expensive and the education stress that follows for over a decade after giving birth is even more straining.

This times 100. The US education system has a lot of flaws, but for the most part, school placement is usually based on geographical location (which comes with its own set of problems), the SAT and ACT are not terribly difficult, and more importantly those college exams can be retaken multiple times a year.

East Asian education is extremely competitive with competition for spots starting as early as pre-K (age 3). Japanese media often shows how students get their grades ranked and posted outside of the classroom. The college exams are more comprehensive than the American ones; the South Korean Suneung is scheduled to take 9 hours. The Suneung (and Chinese gaokao, Japanese Center Test, Singaporean GCE) are only held once a year, so if you want to retest you have to wait the whole year.

And then there is the problem of school bullying: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/metoo-style-reckoning-ove...

> “A lot of the people used to say bullying matters in school were merely immature scuffles between teenagers,” she said. “Some would even blame the victims, saying that it is their problem that they cannot fit in.”

> Two decades ago, her daughter was beaten by a dozen schoolmates and spent five days in a coma. Yet, when Jo attempted to hold the students accountable, the wider community viewed her as a troublemaker, and her family was forced to move to another area.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#102

Post by ubercore »

eatonphil wrote: post #9
Razengan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most modern how? Is everything just recently built or actually designed with modern principles in mind that will still feel relevant a decade down the road? I’m no researcher of any thing but the casual impression I’ve gotten from reading here and there over the years is that South Korea has plenty of problems, social and otherwise, and some of them pretty archaic and morbid (like idols collapsing on stage but nobody…

The trains running in the subways are much newer, cleaner, and wider than the ones in NYC or Tokyo or Paris or London (based on my own observation). They also continually build out entirely new rapid lines like the Bundang express line which takes you from a suburb of Seoul to the center of Gangnam (a major district) in 15 minutes. Their buildings are also mostly new. It seems like every decade or two Koreans demolis…

I moved to Norway, been living here for about a month now. I haven't see Norwegian money even once. I think I've seen one ATM. Granted a month is not a lot of time, but it's startlingly cashless.

The only annoying thing so far is that my US based Visa card just can't be processed in some places even if Visa is advertised. When I called Chase to see if it was a security thing, they said they didn't even see the charge attempted, and said there are 2 different kinds of credit processing in Europe? I haven't done any research into that yet, though. Overall, I just bring my phone and pay for everything with my iPhone.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#103

Post by mathverse »

kijin wrote: post #98
robjan wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One factor that needs to be considered is that in Korea, as in many Asian regions, people are expected to look after their parents when they get old. Society and social security have been build around this assumption.

That's been changing very rapidly in SK. Almost everyone in their 40s and 50s today have been putting money into public pension plans as well as a multitude of private options. When they retire, they won't be economically dependent on their children. Nor can they expect to, because their children's generation is by all means poorer than their own. Whether those public funds and private options will be enough, of cour…

The average price of an apartment in Seoul is hitting $1M and the avg gdp per capita is around $38k.I am afraid a lot of that wealth is just real estate market speculation that might burst when the supply outstrips demand in 50 years.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#104

Post by Clewza313 »

yorwba wrote: post #39
alephnan wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tokyo largely feels like it was frozen in time. Economically, Japan has been in stagnation since the late 80s.

Economically, Japan's GDP per capita (measured in 2010 US$) was 39,240 in 1991 and grew to 49,000 in 2019, a 25% increase. Yes, it's slower growth than before, but slow growth is still growth, not stagnation. For comparison, New Zealand was at 38,345 in 2019: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD?end=2020... (also threw in the graph for South Korea)

During that time the USD has suffered around 88% inflation measures by CPI, so in real terms that implies they're going backwards.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#105

Post by vbtemp »

mathverse wrote: post #99

Korea is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_Joseon but the thing is koreans carry the spirit of Hell Joseon wherever they go and work with other koreans. We (my wife is a korean) live in Europe and the same things that stressed my wife (and our korean friends) exist whenever you have to work with other koreans and their companies.It's not as bad as in Korea but it's still something that I can easily notice.

I'd be curious to see a Slate Star Codex piece on this. One of his classic pieces was "Meditations on Moloch" https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ ( and related: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/17/the-toxoplasma-of-rage... )

It seems like the similar thing here - literally everyone sees how agonizing, exhausting, detrimental, and counterproductive the current system is. No one likes it. But yet, despite that, there's some gradient it goes against that prevents clearly better alternatives from emerging. I wonder what that case is in Korea, the subject OP, Japan, Taiwan, and other countries.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#106

Post by Clewza313 »

ptsneves wrote: post #90
throwaway4good wrote: post #33

Funny how the article doesn’t mention that Korea is a divided country technically still at war. Besides the development of modern South Korea out of a brutal military dictatorship is largely parallel to that of other Asian countries: Taiwan, Singapore, Japan and China.

The article title explicitly calls out South Korea. The country is also recognized as sovereign nation by more than 188 countries, having a seat in the United Nations as well. Territorial disputes are common even in Europe, as well as developments out of brutal dictatorship. I honestly do not get your point :)

There are no territorial disputes in Europe that involve nuclear powers threatening total annihilation on neighbors. Seoul is within easy artillery range of the North, and the badly misnamed DMZ (or, rather, both sides outside the zone itself) is among the most militarized places on the planet.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#107

Post by mathverse »

vbtemp wrote: post #105
mathverse wrote: post #99

Korea is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_Joseon but the thing is koreans carry the spirit of Hell Joseon wherever they go and work with other koreans. We (my wife is a korean) live in Europe and the same things that stressed my wife (and our korean friends) exist whenever you have to work with other koreans and their companies.It's not as bad as in Korea but it's still something that I can easily notice.

I'd be curious to see a Slate Star Codex piece on this. One of his classic pieces was "Meditations on Moloch" https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ ( and related: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/17/the-toxoplasma-of-rage... ) It seems like the similar thing here - literally everyone sees how agonizing, exhausting, detrimental, and counterproductive the current system is. No one likes it. But…

It's very simple actually.Koreans hate the working culture and long working hours but at the same time require convenience that can only be achieved by maintaining this hellish working culture.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#108

Post by keykoo »

eatonphil wrote: post #2

My wife is South Korean so I'm biased. But I've been to Japan and South Korea and if you're looking for one of the most modern nations in the world, I strongly recommend you go to Korea. The only comparable country I've been to is the Netherlands or maybe Denmark. In contrast, the US and Japan seem to be somewhat falling apart with a peak in infrastructure and buildings a few decades ago. It's not that bad of course…

I'm sorta surprised by your statement. I've lived in Seoul, Tokyo, and NYC for various periods of my life and I'd definitely say Tokyo feels the most "modern" when you scratch beneath the surface.

For example, I'd say the basic subway system between Seoul and Tokyo are pretty similar but you also have the advantage of a vastly superior rail network that serves Greater Tokyo and the rest of Japan. KTX and SRT in Korea are improving every year but don't really compare yet. Additionally, the new subway stations in Seoul are quite nice (Line #9) but you also have really old lines (Line #1) where many of the stations are so badly maintained they feel inferior to their counterparts in Tokyo (Ginza, Hibiya).

I can't really speak to the english speaking issues in South Korea, but in Tokyo I never really had any issues even though I don't speak Japanese. Most places in Tokyo will have english menus because it's a tourist centric city. Neighborhood family owned dives probably don't speak english very well but they wouldn't in Seoul either.

The thing that makes Seoul fall short for me is the standard of building maintenance. Although things are changing, it was generally the case that for several generations of building maintenance they just expected to tear them down and rebuild. Tokyo has a similar problem, necessitated by constant building damage and updated building codes from earthquakes, but the biggest difference is that a lot of these buildings in Seoul are 10+ stories tall. Most of Tokyo's building stock is One of the worst things for me is how car centric Seoul is. It's rare in Tokyo to have 3+ lane roads that aren't toll road/expressways. They're all over Seoul and the side roads are packed full of "valet" parking for restaurants that don't actually have parking lots. The entire car culture feels way more chaotic there than Tokyo. In Tokyo, you can't buy a car unless you prove you have a registered parking spot. In Seoul, you just double park your neighbor and put your phone number in case you need to move your car.

Lastly the air quality in Seoul is way worse than Tokyo. Feels like you constantly have to stay indoors for weeks during the bad "yellow dust" season.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#109

Post by jerkstate »

nerdponx wrote: post #44
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> going to be one of the grand challenges of the 50 years I’m sceptical of this claim. Demand per capita grows unabated. Working lives are lengthening. A smaller population living well is economically indistinguishable, in the aggregate, from a large one living poorly. Maybe post-industrial civilisations settle into a lower-population steady state than ones requiring lots of unrefined labor. Yes, dependency ratios wi…

I am very much looking forward to a lower-birthrate future in which fewer people live better and more sustainably. The problem is in the short/medium term, figuring out how to pay for all these checks that politicians have been writing over the last 50 years. The problem isn't that "the young" have to support "the old", it's that a lot of promises were made on the assumption of indefinite growth.

So strange to me that when UBI is discussed, pervasive automation is right around the corner to pay for it, but when birth rate decline is discussed, the only solution on the table is open borders. I wonder why that could be?

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#110

Post by eatonphil »

keykoo wrote: post #108
eatonphil wrote: post #2

My wife is South Korean so I'm biased. But I've been to Japan and South Korea and if you're looking for one of the most modern nations in the world, I strongly recommend you go to Korea. The only comparable country I've been to is the Netherlands or maybe Denmark. In contrast, the US and Japan seem to be somewhat falling apart with a peak in infrastructure and buildings a few decades ago. It's not that bad of course…

I'm sorta surprised by your statement. I've lived in Seoul, Tokyo, and NYC for various periods of my life and I'd definitely say Tokyo feels the most "modern" when you scratch beneath the surface. For example, I'd say the basic subway system between Seoul and Tokyo are pretty similar but you also have the advantage of a vastly superior rail network that serves Greater Tokyo and the rest of Japan. KTX and SRT in Korea…

Upvoted for the opposing observations.

I have taken KTX but I have not taken (non-subway) rail in Japan. The KTX train I took was similar in quality to German inter-city rail or American regional rail lines. That is to say, it wasn't that special.

The air quality issues are a huge pain for sure.

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