First Nokia, Now RIM: The Mighty Are Falling • Hacker News Board

Re: First Nokia, Now RIM: The Mighty Are Falling

#11

Post by VladRussian » Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 9:00 PM UTC

programminggeek wrote: post #6

I don't think I've ever seen a company cut employees en masse like this truly help a company come from behind to regain their former status. It sends so many wrong messages. If those 10% of your company aren't worthwhile, why were they hired and employed in the first place? If management can afford to cut staff by 10%, the C and VP level management should be fired. Start by cutting at the top, not at the bottom. Cutt…

nothing will help these companies. It is time for them to go.

Look at the bright side though - 2000 of mobile developers is relieved from working on dead-end products and ready to be injected into red-hot mobile hiring market to work on the successful mobile products. Its win-win for everybody - the developers, their new companies, consumers.

Re: First Nokia, Now RIM: The Mighty Are Falling

#12

Post by ForrestN » Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 9:04 PM UTC

I would be really interested to read an informed analysis of these two cases in the context of public company shareholder dynamics. I think it's an understated advantage of Steve Job's ultra-centrality at Apple that shareholders tend to defer to him in a way that I expect they might not with other companies (obviously this might become a disadvantage when he leaves). Has pressure from shareholders meaningfully affected the decision-making of companies like Nokia and RIM? Are short-term incentives defeating long-term incentives because of such pressure? I don't know, but I'd love to hear from someone who does.

Re: First Nokia, Now RIM: The Mighty Are Falling

#13

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 9:05 PM UTC

dsmithn wrote: post #9

programminggeek wrote: post #6

I don't think I've ever seen a company cut employees en masse like this truly help a company come from behind to regain their former status. It sends so many wrong messages. If those 10% of your company aren't worthwhile, why were they hired and employed in the first place? If management can afford to cut staff by 10%, the C and VP level management should be fired. Start by cutting at the top, not at the bottom. Cutt…

I can't disagree with the first two paragraphs, but for the last, what about shutting down entire divisions? If a company invested in a failed product that requires a number of specialized employees, does it imply they were spending money like drunken sailors when they have to let them go?

[deleted]

Re: First Nokia, Now RIM: The Mighty Are Falling

#14

Post by thematt » Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 9:42 PM UTC

I'm not sure if it's related to their troubles, but their corporate structure has always seemed odd to me. Starting with the whole "co-CEO" role, which seems like an experiment that hasn't quite panned out.

Re: First Nokia, Now RIM: The Mighty Are Falling

#15

Post by othermaciej » Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 9:49 PM UTC

Luyt wrote: post #5

esr also keeps a close eye on the developments in the mobile phone market. His latest blog post on this is at http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=3493 , a short quote: "Nokia’s strategy, insofar as it’s actually had one since the tie-up with Microsoft, has been to hang in there on volume sales of dumbphones until it could deliver world-beating WP7 handsets. The major risk here, other than the wild unlikelihood of WP7 ever beco…

I think esr lost a lot of credibility with his claim that the iPhone was facing imminent collapse, followed by Apple's record quarter. He seems more interested in finding any evidence whatsoever for the proposition that Android will dominate the market, than in doing thoughtful analysis. The post you linked is a case in point. He's also cherry-picking his past predictions to highlight only the ones that turned out to be right.

Re: First Nokia, Now RIM: The Mighty Are Falling

#16

Post by Silhouette » Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 10:07 PM UTC

Wasn't there an open letter from a senior staffer at RIM just a few days ago, which spelt out the problems on the ground and what needed to be done about them in brutally honest fashion, which was promptly brushed under the carpet (or not) by RIM PR? It seems like the rank and file staff at RIM get it, but the top level management don't, which is a sufficient condition to know how the story ends.

Edit: Yes, here it is: http://www.bgr.com/2011/06/30/open-letter-to-blackberry-boss...

Re: First Nokia, Now RIM: The Mighty Are Falling

#17

Post by ruslan » Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 10:12 PM UTC

QNX ? What for ?

I think RIM should learn from Nokia's mistake and switch to Android soon as possible. This is the only way to survive for them.

Re: First Nokia, Now RIM: The Mighty Are Falling

#18

Post by cpeterso » Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 10:18 PM UTC

phuff wrote: post #8

I am not fully versed in the notion of innovative disruption, but it seems pretty obvious that a Clay Christensen-esque Innovator's Dilemma disruption is what's going on here: somebody had a decent product, is first to market, but doesn't have a clear enough vision to see how to stay on top and stay innovative and gets blindsided by unexpected (read Apple + Android) competitors. I wonder how closely the non-cliff not…

I think RIM and Nokia both had "Cash Cow Disease". The Blackberry and Symbian had been successes for so long that short-term profits/losses and internal politics prevent the companies from investing in new (and seemingly "inferior") technologies that would cannabilize their own successful products. For example, Nokia had touchscreen phones that didn't sell well, so they thought the touchscreen iPhone was a "toy".

Re: First Nokia, Now RIM: The Mighty Are Falling

#19

Post by cpeterso » Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 10:20 PM UTC

dsmithn wrote: post #9

programminggeek wrote: post #6

I don't think I've ever seen a company cut employees en masse like this truly help a company come from behind to regain their former status. It sends so many wrong messages. If those 10% of your company aren't worthwhile, why were they hired and employed in the first place? If management can afford to cut staff by 10%, the C and VP level management should be fired. Start by cutting at the top, not at the bottom. Cutt…

I can't disagree with the first two paragraphs, but for the last, what about shutting down entire divisions? If a company invested in a failed product that requires a number of specialized employees, does it imply they were spending money like drunken sailors when they have to let them go?

I'm reminded of Steve Job's advice to Nike:

"Nike makes some of the best products in the world. Products that you lust after. But you also make a lot of crap. Just get rid of the crappy stuff and focus on the good stuff."

Re: First Nokia, Now RIM: The Mighty Are Falling

#20

Post by hello_moto » Mon, Jul 25, 2011, 10:29 PM UTC

ruslan wrote: post #17

QNX ? What for ? I think RIM should learn from Nokia's mistake and switch to Android soon as possible. This is the only way to survive for them.

Wow, CEO of the year for you sir.

If things would be as easy as that, flip to Android and compete with the rest... to the bottom. How would you differentiate yourself vs HTC, Motorola, etc?

What if the Chinese android handsets comes up with cheap mobile phones similar to BB hardware interface (the golden keyboard, you know that BB users love BB because of the keyboard).

Switching to Android makes RIM an average company like everybody else.