On my team, I inherited an interview process with 7 steps. It's a long one for sure, and it's not a process I can change. But as a hiring manager I mitigate issues brought up in this article by doing a few really easy things: 1. On my first chat with a candidate, I layout the entire interview process. I acknowledge that it is long and I preemptively thank them for going through the process and say that we value their…
I'd really appreciate a letter with feedback after a lengthy interviewing process, I think that's really valuable. However, I don't think I'd value it after more than 3 interviews. Candidates are applying after work hours and there's a time / energy limit to how many processes they can take at a time. After a given point, you're wasting not hours but possibly months of their life.
The rise of never-ending job interviews
971–980 of 1001 posts
Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews
#972On my team, I inherited an interview process with 7 steps. It's a long one for sure, and it's not a process I can change. But as a hiring manager I mitigate issues brought up in this article by doing a few really easy things: 1. On my first chat with a candidate, I layout the entire interview process. I acknowledge that it is long and I preemptively thank them for going through the process and say that we value their…
I like your approach and I think it really makes the process much better. However, this one thing stands out to me: > I acknowledge that it is long [...] and say that we value their time. I dislike this communication style. Maybe it's a cultural difference. I've heard several times from an American speaker that they "value my time/comfort/satisfaction". At the same time their act clearly showed that they valued somet…
Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews
#973Earlier quoted context omitted.
Except that lawyers have to pass the California bar once in order to get licensed; we SWEs have to pass the "bar" every time we look for a new job.
A big part of the problem that usually never gets discussed is how the lack of institutional trust between tech companies affects hiring and interviewing. There's no licensure in SWE, so in a sense your reputation is based on the companies you've previously worked for. But it seems like even if you have "name brand" corporations on your CV, other companies have no trust that your experience indicates competency. So e…
One such candidate I interviewed seemed like they'd be really great for the role: PhD in graph theory, publications, projects listed on the résumé, couple of different programming languages (including ones we used). To me, this person's résumé screamed "solid mid-level developer." I would have probably been willing to pass them at a junior level, had they been able to perform at that level, though.
The interview itself was a pretty familiar story. For the technical portion, I introduced the problem (not a LeetCode-type problem, a more practically-oriented problem), we talked about requirements, drew some stuff on the board, and then got to coding.
I had a feeling when we were going through the requirements discussion that this might not go as smoothly as I'd hoped, but I pushed that feeling aside and did my best to let them shine.
We let people code in any reasonable programming language, but they must write actual code. They can fill in stuff like dummy helper functions, if necessary, but we want to see some kind of running, syntactically correct, and, preferably, at least lightly tested code.
They chose to code in Java, which, while not a terrible choice, seemed to me kind of like they were just handicapping themselves when stuff like (IIRC) Javascript and Ruby were listed on their résumé.
To make the long-ish story a bit shorter, we muddled through trying to implement the requirements we'd talked about earlier in Java, meanwhile the candidate was showing me a distinct lack of familiarity with basic facilities of the language, such as "what sort of methods do lists have that might be helpful here?"
Needless to say, this person did not pass my interview, and we did not end up hiring them. But, I really, really wanted them to succeed. Like I said, on paper, they look great. And, I'm sure they could have gotten through a culture fit interview just fine. I'm just not sure how well they would have done on our team, working on our rather large, pre-existing, and somewhat crufty code bases.
If you can figure out a good way to automate the task of "filter these developers down to the ones who can write some semblance of code," in a way that goes deeper than just "Write some code and run it against our automated test cases," I'd like to hear about that. And, I'm not doubting that it could be done, in theory. For instance, maybe something like the engine behind GitHub's CoPilot could provide a way to analyze and grade the candidate's code on things like style, testability, test coverage, modularity, &c.
But, AFAIK, there's nothing like that out there now, so, a structured process consisting of ~1-hour technical interview sessions, one-on-one with the candidate, attempting as best as possible to simulate the real work environment, is about the best I can think of.
Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews
#974Earlier quoted context omitted.
Does this kind of trick question work well in practice? If they explicitly ask for syntax errors it would be a waste of time to also check the code for other errors. I can’t imagine many people opting to do that unless they know it’s a trick question.
I don’t see what information people can glean from those trick questions. Any time I’ve interviewed people I’ve made it a point to emphasize that none of my questions are trick questions and if anything is unclear, they should ask clarifying questions. The result? Interviewees are more comfortable and are far more honest about what they know, what they don’t know, and you get to see a glimpse of what they’re really l…
It is fine to say 'I do not know'. It is fine to guess, but if you do, I would prefer that you tell me it is a guess.
If you want any clarification, I will try to provide it. If you don't recall the exact signature of a library function, ask me. I will note down what I said and not hold incorrect nformation I give against you.
Any questions before we start?"
Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews
#975The caveat: I needed to really think through the problems beforehand, understand other possible solutions, traps and potential dead ends (ie. spend time on it).
When a few years later I was asked to do some recruiting at my company (DS/R&D positions, not SE), first thing I did was to prepare a few sets of interconnected problems, to gauge the person's knowledge and how does (s)he think when encountering a new problem with all necessary tools at hand. The problems were difficult but I never expected anyone to actually solve them.
I did dome technical interviews as a candidate, being asked about random math puzzles/algos one can google in 30 sec and which are already implemented in standard libraries -- even though I usually could solve most of them I sincerely wish such interviewers would ef off and stop wasting my time. We are grown-ups, I already spent my fair share of time solving elementary riddles during high school math competitions and I'd like to be treated like a serious professional. During my years as a ML Engineer/dev I never EVER needed to implement a single tree/graph/whatever algorithm from scratch. Also, many adults have a life, family, other full-time job and grinding leetcode is not something anyone should be expected to do.
To be honest, quite a few times I doubted that the interviewer would know how to solve a similar problem without having the solution checked in company's interview problems database. Also, time pressure and stress are a buzzkiller.
As for multiple interview rounds -- a non-starter. Recently, while exploring the market, a top-tier betting company asked me to do a take home, 4h technical interview and then another long take-home (unpaid, of course). I told them that they are ridiculous and asked to never contact me again. I'm at liberty to do so as I have a job I'm happy with and zero need to actually change it, but if someone has been laid off I can see people get grinded to death -- both mentally and physically -- by such interview processes.
Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews
#976Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews
#977Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've mentioned before but at my previous FAANG gig everyone only looked at the resumes they were assigned to interview like 15 minutes before the interview time was scheduled down the hall / building somewhere. No one knew who they were interviewing or what was on the resume until they glanced at it while walking to the interview room. I suspect all interviews and the process are just made up as folks go along, and h…
One could argue that, when you're interviewing a lot of candidates and your acceptance rate is low, it makes sense to maintain a consistent approach to interviews. For example, asking all candidates the same question would help you develop a better sense for what a good discussion looks like, where candidates tend to struggle, how to help them along without solving the problem for them etc. This is in contrast to tai…
Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews
#978Earlier quoted context omitted.
The experiences that people describe here just confirm something that many of us has learned a long time ago: NOBODY HAS "FIGURED OUT" HIRING ! Not Google, not Apple, no one. Sure, some places (and individual interviewers) are better at it than others. But at the end of the day, hiring is a deeply subjective process with lots of error and uncertainty built into it's nature. The subjectivity is intrinsic. Places like…
Pretend there's a Programming Quotient (PQ) which is like IQ. Let's say Google would like candidates with PQ>130 with 95% confidence. Google has an error with std. div. of 15 points in measurement of PQ in jobs interviews. Google then needs to set the hiring bar at 160 PQ in order to get those candidates. This: - screens most qualified candidates out; but - most candidates who do screen in are qualified Statistics wo…
Instead, you should try to find lots of correlates of PQ and measure them regularly.
Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews
#979Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is mostly management speak for: don't blame us, we're just incompetent . If you run a company and you have a "revolving door of employees" (ie: we can't retain talent), your managers "are new to the process" and don't know what they're looking for (ie: we hire inexperienced managers), and you "can't get enough skilled interviewers on a panel" (ie: "we don't hire enough engineers and we're too cheap and shortsigh…
Are there companies that don't have a revolving door? Talent retention seems to be solidly tagged #wontfix.
Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews
#980Earlier quoted context omitted.
Pretend there's a Programming Quotient (PQ) which is like IQ. Let's say Google would like candidates with PQ>130 with 95% confidence. Google has an error with std. div. of 15 points in measurement of PQ in jobs interviews. Google then needs to set the hiring bar at 160 PQ in order to get those candidates. This: - screens most qualified candidates out; but - most candidates who do screen in are qualified Statistics wo…
I very much agree with everything you wrote, except for the arrogance bit. Many actually suffer from the impostor syndrome and just a few I could call arrogant. I'm sorry you had to deal with them but please don't generalize from just a few.