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The UK’s delta surge is collapsing

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Re: The UK’s delta surge is collapsing

#181
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious why this comment is being downvoted. Anyone wish to comment?

If I had to guess (and maybe I shouldnt be speaking as I didnt downvote), its a combination of "It's time to stop with fear, uncertainty and doubt, and deal with facts" followed by unsubstantiated "compelling evidence that children are at greater risk from the vaccines than the virus." The "time to stop with fear" and to stop catering to "anxious adults" can equally apply to this persons crusade to not vaccinate chil…

> its a combination of "It's time to stop with fear, uncertainty and doubt, and deal with facts" followed by unsubstantiated "compelling evidence that children are at greater risk from the vaccines than the virus."

The links I provided -- particularly the last three -- document the points I made regarding relative risk. You just have to read them.

Re: The UK’s delta surge is collapsing

#183
post #90

Most news articles I see focus solely on the number of vaccinated people when estimating how far away countries are from herd immunity, which seems odd to me. Left out in the discussion seem to be the unvaccinated but already infected. As far as I know, prior infection confers at least some degree of immunity. It may also be the case that those inclined to be skeptical of vaccines were also the ones who exposed thems…

I don't know what the point of such conjecture is. Of course we don't know how much immunity comes from infection, and it is quite clear from the spread of delta that we are nowhere near herd immunity in the developed world, even in places like Israel. I had a coronavirus called a cold last year; does that mean I'm immune this year? Unlikely in the long term with COVID. The entire concept of herd immunity may be a mi…

> Of course we don't know how much immunity comes from infection

Come on, this is silly. We haven't learned nothing over the last year. https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting...

Re: The UK’s delta surge is collapsing

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Left out in the discussion seem to be the unvaccinated but already infected. As far as I know, prior infection confers at least some degree of immunity. We don't know how much, though. There are cases in which vaccine performs better than a natural infection, there are cases in which the vaccine performs worse than natural infection. Without time for a study, it's impossible to know where we lie with Covid.

Without time for a study, wouldn’t it make sense to assume the most common thing, that a natural infection provides more immunity than the vaccine? Taking the line of reasoning where we assume the worst case scenario until proven otherwise, would it be reasonable to assume long term medical issues from the vaccinations?

> Without time for a study, wouldn’t it make sense to assume the most common thing, that a natural infection provides more immunity than the vaccine?

No, actually; the actual infection sometimes misfires, leaving dud spike proteins outside the cells. If the immune system finds those first, it'll attack the dud spike proteins instead of the still-functional spike proteins, attacking all the viruses that failed to get into the cells instead of all the viruses that might succeed. The mRNA vaccine doesn't produce real, active viruses, so it doesn't have this problem.

> Taking the line of reasoning where we assume the worst case scenario until proven otherwise, would it be reasonable to assume long term medical issues from the vaccinations?

Assuming the worst-case scenario until proven otherwise doesn't work like that. You have to look at the entire range of uncertainty, and choose the worst-case scenario for each question.

Example: you want to know, worst-case, how many people will die from car crashes on a road in a year, so you assume that the cars involved in collisions are travelling at the fastest recorded speeds on that road (or in the 90th percentile of speeds on similar roads, or something). But if you want to know, worst-case, how long it'll take to travel the road, you should assume there'll be loads of traffic jams, or the road will be closed.

So here's a worst-case scenario if people don't get vaccinated, bounded by my amateur knowledge of epidemiology: there's a large enough infected population passing the disease around for a really deadly, fast-spreading variant to emerge, and its antigens are different enough from normal that everyone currently vaccinated is susceptible, hundreds of millions of people die, and COVID becomes a seasonal (but much more deadly) illness, killing hundreds of millions again every few years until it reaches an equilibrium of sorts. (A real epidemiologist would know more, which would probably lead to a less apocalyptic worst-case scenario prediction – but it might lead to an even worse one.)

Here's a worst-case scenario if people do get vaccinated: everyone is vaccinated, COVID-19 starts going away, then a month later, it turns out that the vaccines – and real COVID-19 infections (there's no mechanism in the vaccines that isn't also in SARS-CoV-2, excluding the needle / delivery mechanism) cause some complicated, heretofore-unknown-to-science time-delay mechanism that causes a severe allergy or autoimmune condition. Thousands die before we identify the problem, and tens of thousands die before our politicians get their acts together and authorise the mass distribution of anti-allergy / immunosuppressant medication (which we already have manufacturing plants and distribution networks for). We live with the aftermath, but getting infected would've been just as bad.

This second scenario is a lot less realistic than the global apocalypse one, because I had to pull side effects out of my ass. If the vaccines caused chronic fatigue syndrome, which is the only COVID-19-induced disorder caused by a mechanism that the vaccines could share (because we don't know what causes it), it would've started happening already. But it hasn't. Assuming some arbitrary thing we have a fair bit of evidence against is not how you do worst-case scenarios, and it certainly shouldn't be how you do actual planning.

Re: The UK’s delta surge is collapsing

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point because the media (and their pharmaceutical advertisers) have framed everything in terms of vaccination, as if the human immune system is incapable of surviving COVID and it's variants. All viruses get less lethal as time goes on, not stronger, despite all the fear porn that has been indoctrinated into the public over the last year and a half.

Certain viruses maintained their lethality as time went on. Smallpox was very lethal throughout time. Influenza lethality ebbs throughout history. I don't think we can or should depend on less-lethal, common-cold-like symptoms from Covid-19 at any point.

SARS-CoV-2 does cause common cold like symptoms in the vast majority of cases, just like other coronaviruses. In particular it's quite similar to HCoV-OC43. The only reason those other endemic coronaviruses don't kill many people is that most of us get infected as children and build up some immunity.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7252012/

Re: The UK’s delta surge is collapsing

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what the point of such conjecture is. Of course we don't know how much immunity comes from infection, and it is quite clear from the spread of delta that we are nowhere near herd immunity in the developed world, even in places like Israel. I had a coronavirus called a cold last year; does that mean I'm immune this year? Unlikely in the long term with COVID. The entire concept of herd immunity may be a mi…

> Usually viruses become more transmissible and less lethal in response to rational behavior in their hosts--but humans are proving we're not rational. I was under the impression viruses became less lethal because if they became more, they'd kill off their hosts and be less likely to spread. There's a chance you get some super virus that becomes both more transmissible and lethal, but that is very rare (from what I c…

It depends. It’s hard to model and even think about the selection pressures accurately. West Nile virus showed a marked increase in virulence in corvids recently as did rabbit hemorrhagic disease.

And let’s not forget about Mareks disease, where a non-sterilizing vaccine is thought to have contributed to a massive increase in virulence, killing nearly 100% of unvaccinated chickens now vs causing mild disease decades ago.

Re: The UK’s delta surge is collapsing

#187
post #90

Most news articles I see focus solely on the number of vaccinated people when estimating how far away countries are from herd immunity, which seems odd to me. Left out in the discussion seem to be the unvaccinated but already infected. As far as I know, prior infection confers at least some degree of immunity. It may also be the case that those inclined to be skeptical of vaccines were also the ones who exposed thems…

The herd immunity threshold changed with Delta, which I've heard has an R0 of 8-10 (compare 3.5-4.5 for the UK Alpha variant, and about 2.5 for the original strain). Instead of 60% vaccination, you'd need 90%, and will likely overshoot that. It wouldn't surprise me if the UK's cases are now dropping because they reached that threshold, but I doubt the US is there now. Probably Delta will blow through literally all th…

> It wouldn't surprise me if the UK's cases are now dropping because they reached that threshold, but I doubt the US is there now.

Given the enormous US Covid outbreak, the US is likely not far away. We're at 70% adult vaccination and had a minimum of 100 million prior Covid infections. Also throw in tens of millions of people that likely have natural immunity to Covid.

The biggest question with Delta is going to be the matter of repeat infections and how long the vaccines, the vaccines + prior infections, and prior infections (without vaccination) all hold up against it. To say nothing of what variations will follow next after Delta. Is there actually herd immunity to be found with Delta, or will people just keep getting variations of Covid from here forward. I don't believe there will be herd immunity for any nations, there will just be far lower mortality rates due to prior virus exposure and the vaccines. Some non-trivial % of the vaccinated population will continue to get Covid. If there was a chance to squash Covid with the early strain via herd immunity, those days are very long gone.

The great lie still being persisted for the benefit of the agitated public, is that Covid is going to go away courtesy of vaccinations. The authorities have pitched that to the public from the early days of the vaccines to try to max out the vaccination rates. Do this and Covid goes away. The vaccines are never going to stop Covid, they're going to continue to dramatically reduce the mortality rates (which is critical, however the public still doesn't widely grasp the reality of the forever Covid future yet).

Re: The UK’s delta surge is collapsing

#188
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a perfect illustration of the point. In the face of ample documented evidence of the actual risk, your response is to speculate wildly about future events that are completely inconsistent with what we know.

The response to controlling people and taking away their freedom in the name of COVID has been ran deliberately and openly run through fear mongering. It's no wonder people keep defaulting to that, but we must actively reject and counter fear mongering.

> run through fear mongering

More than 4 million people have died so far. If you're going to say it was "fear mongering" then buzz off.

Re: The UK’s delta surge is collapsing

#189
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd imagine not too long after safe and effective vaccines are authorized for children under 12. Children are at exceptionally low risk from Covid. It's time to stop with fear, uncertainty and doubt, and deal with facts. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01897-w In the US, 340 children under 17 have died from Covid. Total. During the same period, 187 have died from the flu, and over 51,000 children have di…

The reason to not want children to get COVID is that they will spread it to their parents and grandparents, who are more vulnerable. It’s not about whether the children will die, which everyone agrees is very low probability.

The parents and grandparents who want to be vaccinated already have been.

Re: The UK’s delta surge is collapsing

#190
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd imagine not too long after safe and effective vaccines are authorized for children under 12. Children are at exceptionally low risk from Covid. It's time to stop with fear, uncertainty and doubt, and deal with facts. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01897-w In the US, 340 children under 17 have died from Covid. Total. During the same period, 187 have died from the flu, and over 51,000 children have di…

I'm curious why this comment is being downvoted. Anyone wish to comment?

The commenter claims to want to removed "FUD" from the dialogue.

Then proceeds to dispense with their own "FUD" about scared parents desperately trying to vaccinate their children.

Apparently no one else can think for themselves.

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