Why is China smashing its tech industry? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is China smashing its tech industry?

#201

Post by itmayno » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 7:03 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #197

itmayno wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“ It's cracking down on private Internet companies that acquired too much power through network effects.” Sounds like smashing to me. Smashing down on private companies and innovations. Smashing down on private wealth and power. Smashing down on freedom and growth. You can tell the dictator is getting desperate if he stops the train of innovation.

That makes the assumption that "innovation" is consumer facing internet technology.

Alibaba isn’t just consumer facing internet technologies, look up the vast b2b stuff it does. And other types of companies have been smashed as well like evergrande or Wanda.

Also, do you really think innovation will come from state companies? In that case, why didn’t 1980 China or 1980 Russia thrive?

Re: Why is China smashing its tech industry?

#202

Post by 908B64B197 » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 7:07 PM UTC

ru552 wrote: post #6

I think it's because they want their best and brightest working on physics, materials, technological breakthroughs, etc., instead of ad tech.

I think a lot of western bright minds would be working on physics, materials, technological breakthroughs if the pay wasn't abysmal and working conditions exploitative.

Re: Why is China smashing its tech industry?

#203

Post by coryrc » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 7:08 PM UTC

caeril wrote: post #96

nceqs3 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I agree with the FB part but Netflix? The chinese audience consumes huge amounts of video content.

Asia/Pacific region consumes, on average, 154 minutes per day of all media, compared to North America's 293. I'm old enough to remember the general optimism we in technology had about the unlocking of human productive potential as automation and globalization freed us from the constraints of scarcity. Marshall Brain, Clay Shirky, and many others write extensively on this zeitgeist. But that's not what ultimately happ…

The Expanse (and Star Trek before it, etc) provides the inspiration to make the effort. They aren't the problem. It gnaws at me daily that I'm not working for SpaceX, and only because of science fiction like that. I don't (yet) because of work/life balance first and money second. Maybe I should apply for BO.

Re: Why is China smashing its tech industry?

#204

Post by vikiomega9 » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 7:11 PM UTC

caeril wrote: post #11

> China may simply see things differently. It’s possible that the Chinese government has decided that the profits of companies like Alibaba and Tencent come more from rents than from actual value added Excellent observation, and I hope, for China's sake, that this is the reason. The United States is likely in for a long-term rude awakening when it finally realizes that an economy predicated on negative-value-add acti…

Indeed, one of the more interesting ideas I've been considering is how does society think about the delayed effects on mental health and attention deficit. For example, one might argue maybe Netflix is easier to moderate at the level of a family or community, like having parental locks on time spent on quality content. But what do you do with Internet Porn? There is enough evidence that novelty stimulation has detrimental effects. For either scenario, the internet has made it easier to consume more and at a faster rate, but we don't have a quick and easy mechanism to talk about these things and develop cultural practices. One of the more interesting ideas for me is finding that balance between liberal individual right to choice and recognizing all systems including human society is a feedback loop and drifts into failure (either expanding freedoms or curbing them).

Re: Why is China smashing its tech industry?

#205

Post by dematz » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #181

sydd wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is. If it would be totally banned it would result in an emergence of a black market. We have the same thing on Hungary, there is one state controlled gambling company that's under heavy regulation (18+ only, full with warning signs against gambling, barely any advertisements, has only a few old-school products like scratch cards)

Sure a black market would be worse, but why not just regulate it. Government shouldn't have an incentive to ensure that gambling exists and remains profitable which they do so long as they're running it. Government shouldn't be directly engaged in the business of any vice for that reason.

To add to the other reply, governments can be pretty good at unoptimizing the user's experience. As opposed to, like, game companies trying to make it really easy and tempting to pay for stuff on your phone, the specific government person in charge of this stuff is (hopefully) not walking home with pockets full of money if they get people to gamble.

If it's something like a police officer whose funding comes from collecting fines, sure, there are really bad incentives there. But if the government casino department isn't eating what it kills then it doesn't seem like a problem.

Re: Why is China smashing its tech industry?

#206

Post by gamblor956 » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

caeril wrote: post #96

nceqs3 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I agree with the FB part but Netflix? The chinese audience consumes huge amounts of video content.

Asia/Pacific region consumes, on average, 154 minutes per day of all media, compared to North America's 293. I'm old enough to remember the general optimism we in technology had about the unlocking of human productive potential as automation and globalization freed us from the constraints of scarcity. Marshall Brain, Clay Shirky, and many others write extensively on this zeitgeist. But that's not what ultimately happ…

It seems you're just complaining that more people aren't doing work for free, in their free time away from work?

But even there, you're wrong about the activities/technologies you're complaining about. HfH, food banks, shelters, and other non-profits with limited capacity for volunteer work have wait lists several months long in my area. Only billionaires can explore space right now, so why would the rest of us be forming space exploration collections for something that is still a decade or two away? Tons of people self-experiment or participate in bio-hacking; this simply isn't the forum for them to discuss their projects.

Well, the Chinese are doing it. We're not.

Really? Citation needed that millions of Chinese are working in the free time on any of what you talked about.

Re: Why is China smashing its tech industry?

#207

Post by exceptione » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

epivosism wrote: post #34

caeril wrote: post #11

> China may simply see things differently. It’s possible that the Chinese government has decided that the profits of companies like Alibaba and Tencent come more from rents than from actual value added Excellent observation, and I hope, for China's sake, that this is the reason. The United States is likely in for a long-term rude awakening when it finally realizes that an economy predicated on negative-value-add acti…

Is there a name for the question of distinguishing useful economic activity from rent-seeking? It seems tied up in lots of other system/corruption/control related questions - cancer, budget spending, regulation etc. It feels like there can never be a trustable implementation of a "value or rentseeking?" oracle, since the system implementing it would also be under selection and pressure from the virtual gains to be ha…

I think you are looking for the term Real Economy?

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_economy

"The real economy concerns the production, purchase and flow of goods and services (like oil, bread and labour) within an economy. It is contrasted with the financial economy, which concerns the aspects of the economy that deal purely in transactions of fiat money and other financial assets, which represent ownership or claims to ownership of real sector goods and services."

Re: Why is China smashing its tech industry?

#208

Post by ZeroGravitas » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

lasagnaphil wrote: post #165

Animats wrote: post #150

China is not "smashing its tech industry". It's cracking down on private Internet companies that acquired too much power through network effects. This is completely consistent with CCP doctrine. Anything that central has to be state-owned. Xi declared this year that while digitization is important, “we must recognize the fundamental importance of the real economy… and never deindustrialize.” Right. China, remember, h…

Maybe the headline's a bit misleading, but what you're saying is almost exactly what the article is talking about. (The article immediately refutes the notion of "smashing its tech industry" right away)

The article is mostly weird kremlinology of what the chinese leadership are up to. Which seems unnecessary if they're widely publishing 5 year plans that tell you what they're doing.

Similar to Tesla's secret plan to produce cheaper and cheaper vehicles at larger scale, the boring truth isn't a big click winner.

Re: Why is China smashing its tech industry?

#209

Post by Theodores » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

majormajor wrote: post #182

Animats wrote: post #150

China is not "smashing its tech industry". It's cracking down on private Internet companies that acquired too much power through network effects. This is completely consistent with CCP doctrine. Anything that central has to be state-owned. Xi declared this year that while digitization is important, “we must recognize the fundamental importance of the real economy… and never deindustrialize.” Right. China, remember, h…

> “we must recognize the fundamental importance of the real economy… and never deindustrialize.” This hasn't been really put to the test yet, has it? What's the cost of labor delta compared to the places where outsourcing from China would be attractive currently?

In the West the accounting means you can't invest in robots that take years to pay for themselves. It is therefore more profitable to outsource and not have the capital investment on the books.

The Germans do it differently and can get a better return investing in themselves.

In China they have invested heavily in the robots that make the robots. Sure they are playing catch up in some areas, for instance, chips where they don't have a TSMC yet.

Even farming, where do those green and yellow tractors go? Cotton picking in China.

Some China tech is way ahead of the rest of the world. The difficulty of competing is getting really hard hence sanctions against Huawei. They had got 5G and The West didn't even know what it was for.

We have seen it before, Japan was way ahead with electronics and commodity cars. But China has a vast internal market and can proceed without making cheap goods for the West. If Western companies want to outsource to Burkina Faso then fine.

Also into the mix is that Chinese brands are desirable in China and increasingly abroad. China has barely got started.

Re: Why is China smashing its tech industry?

#210

Post by subsubzero » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

neutronicus wrote: post #115

Mizza wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hijacking this comment a bit, but I haven't watched real TV in a very long time but have been tuning in again because of the Olympics and Jeopardy. I'm seeing an incredible amount of ads for companies that let you gamble real money on your phone. Sometimes it's back to back to back to back commercials for online app casinos. This seems really dangerous and a sign of a tragically unhealthy and predatory economy - I ca…

I listen to a lot of basketball podcasts and they are all , even the biggest national ones, trying to get people to gamble It seems like it's gotten a lot worse after COVID, though

In the US its been crazy, before gambling was heavily frowned upon in the big four sports: Michael Jordan was heavily scrutinized for gambling, not on sports but just gambling for fun on his days off(when he was playing). The 49ers owner(Previous owner) Eddie DeBartolo Jr. was banned from the NFL as an owner due to trying to get a gambling license.

Now the NBA is heavily pushing gambling and the revenue that comes with it, In addition the NFL is also pushing fantasy football which is veiled gambling, a few years ago every commerical for an NFL game had 50% of its ads set to either draftkings or fanduel which are both gambling sites. So I see a huge predatory gambling cloud enveloping all sports which is a really sad turn of affairs.