Launch HN: Heimdal (YC S21) – Carbon neutral cement • Hacker News Board

Re: Launch HN: Heimdal (YC S21) – Carbon neutral cement

#41

Post by bernulli » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

marcuslima wrote: post #19

matsemann wrote: post #16

Curious about the name, my immediate thought (and interest making me click in) was that it sounds Norwegian. Any connection? I really like the idea. One thing I'm curious about is what's in it for the contractors (edit: cement producers) buying from you instead of others? I get the environmental impact, but my guess is they only care if touches their bottom line. Will it be cheaper, either in raw price or because of…

Nice catch! I'm orignally from Norway. Heimdal is the norse god of foresight. Something the world needs in buckets when it comes to climate change. Our experience so far has been that the environmental angle has been sufficient to persuade. Cement companies are in a bit of a bind given the attention to their sustainability efforts. However we're pitching ourselves as a cost competitive solution. Depending on geograph…

I think it's a bit late for foresight, maybe Cassandra (is there a Norse equivalent?) is a more apt description of the situation we are in ;-)

Good luck, great idea, hope it works out!

Re: Launch HN: Heimdal (YC S21) – Carbon neutral cement

#42

Post by lifekaizen » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

nobodyknowsyoda wrote: post #15

marcuslima wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our current cost per tonne is in the same order of magnitude when including the carbon value from the European ETS. The key success criteria for making large plants profitable will be connecting to cheap electricity at <$50/MWh we're in the black

What is the current price of carbon credits in the ETS? I am from the USA / am dumb, so don’t know how to find it Also good read for everyone: https://www.gatesnotes.com/Energy/Introducing-the-Green-Prem...

The World Bank has a great resource here which lists out pricing for emissions trading systems (ETS) and carbon tax by country.[0] (Map & Data > Price > Type of Instrument). Highest carbon taxes are $100+ / ton (Sweden, Switzerland, Lichenstein), high initial value for trade is about $50 (EU, Switzerland).

We are a bit behind in the US in credits or taxes, we are now treating the social cost at $51, but not using that for tax or trade policy.[1]

There's one more number that is useful to get a numerical sense of the costs: $258 / ton, an estimate of the actual cost to society. [2]

[0] https://carbonpricingdashboard.worldbank.org/map_data [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/cost-of-carbon-po... [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-24487-w

Re: Launch HN: Heimdal (YC S21) – Carbon neutral cement

#43

Post by rout39574 » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

marcuslima wrote: post #13

rout39574 wrote: post #12

How many orders of magnitude separate your current cost per ton of limestone from the popular status quo methods? You're talking about ancillary products and regulatory credits, which is a fine business model; but I'm asking about the core industrial process. Trying to get a sense of how much more efficient your scale-up needs to be, before your process is in the black.

Our current cost per tonne is in the same order of magnitude when including the carbon value from the European ETS. The key success criteria for making large plants profitable will be connecting to cheap electricity at <$50/MWh we're in the black

What electricity sources have you identified as acceptable for this? Proximity of e.g. hydro to an ocean seems like a small set of sites. :) A naive glance suggests that solar capacity factor of 25% is going to put that particular source out of your budget.

Re: Launch HN: Heimdal (YC S21) – Carbon neutral cement

#44

Post by zestyping » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

This looks exciting! You mentioned building a demo plant that has 1 tCO2/year of capacity, which you plan to scale up to 300 tCO2/year. What is your estimated cost for building a plant, per tCO2/year of capturing capacity? (As opposed to the ongoing cost per tCO2 captured, which sounds like it will be somewhere around $100/tCO2?)

Re: Launch HN: Heimdal (YC S21) – Carbon neutral cement

#45

Post by Aachen » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

Did I correctly understand the idea if I summarise the product as similar to Climeworks, capturing atmospheric CO2 (indirectly through the ocean, same thing in the end), but with the difference that you can sell the resulting product as cement ingredients (plus some byproducts) rather than it being just stored away like Climeworks does?

If this is (roughly) correct, what price point per ton of removed CO2 are you at today, assuming the cement ingredients can be sold at an optimistic price point? I'm currently with Climeworks but it's prohibitively expensive to remove all unavoidable emissions that I cause by living a normal life today, so my subscription doesn't cover all emissions yet and I would love to.

Finally, I don't see a way to buy anything on your site, or even a waiting list. Is there some call to action, like if I were a cement producer could I buy your product today? Any plans to offer CO2 removal to consumers? Or anything else people or businesses can buy at the moment?

Re: Launch HN: Heimdal (YC S21) – Carbon neutral cement

#46

Post by comex » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

What’s the greatest challenge or limitation, technology- or business-wise, that your startup faces? If it fails, why will it fail?

Re: Launch HN: Heimdal (YC S21) – Carbon neutral cement

#47

Post by _joel » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 5:01 PM UTC

matsemann wrote: post #16

Curious about the name, my immediate thought (and interest making me click in) was that it sounds Norwegian. Any connection? I really like the idea. One thing I'm curious about is what's in it for the contractors (edit: cement producers) buying from you instead of others? I get the environmental impact, but my guess is they only care if touches their bottom line. Will it be cheaper, either in raw price or because of…

I thought it was something Kerberos related initially, but that's only due to the fairly mundane circles I move in :)

Re: Launch HN: Heimdal (YC S21) – Carbon neutral cement

#48

Post by cerved » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 5:11 PM UTC

marcuslima wrote: post #30

matsemann wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool. Yeah, maybe the old way of making cement will be too expensive in the future compared to a greener way. Good luck with your first mover attempt! Another curious question: Do you make an "actual" limestone, or what is the final output? A rock, chalk, mudlike or something?

Thanks! Yeah, we think it will be. But more importantly, the old way isn't a viable option. It's effectively off the table. Sweden has already banned mining of limestone ( https://www.ribaj.com/products/cementa-limestone-mine-suspen... ) The product comes out as a really finely ground powder

to be specific, an application was not approved and the reason the court gave was insufficient proof that continued mining wouldn't effect the local groundwater

Re: Launch HN: Heimdal (YC S21) – Carbon neutral cement

#49

Post by brilee » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 5:13 PM UTC

I'm not sure I understand where the carbon savings comes from.

The cement industry specifically needs lime, CaO. Lime is most easily obtained by burning CO2 off of limestone, CaCO3. As you point out, this is effectively "burning off" captured carbon dioxide and is bad.

Where does the carbon savings come from when the ultimate destination is to just burn CO2 off and make the actual desired product, CaO? Is this process ultimately just a better way to make CaO?

Re: Launch HN: Heimdal (YC S21) – Carbon neutral cement

#50

Post by f6v » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 5:13 PM UTC

go_elmo wrote: post #28

marcuslima wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our current cost per tonne is in the same order of magnitude when including the carbon value from the European ETS. The key success criteria for making large plants profitable will be connecting to cheap electricity at <$50/MWh we're in the black

How "flexible" is the production? I mean during peak-sunny hours the price of electricity is well below that mark in some regions of europe? And would it e.g. make sense to scale up in a very sunny region & produce your own power? Last question: Do you need electrical power or heat? If latter, would a more efficient thermo-solar power plant make sense? Best of Luck! :)

> And would it e.g. make sense to scale up in a very sunny region & produce your own power?

It’s an interesting point. The most sunny region might be not the target market. Then you need to factor in the CO2 emissions arising from the transport to consumers.