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Jaipur’s Last Stand

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51–60 of 76 posts

Re: Jaipur’s Last Stand

#51
post #7

Indira Gandhi is being painted in a complete negative light here, and the Princes and Kings and Nawabs are being glorified here. Let me disagree. The Princes, Nawabs, and Kings were all chosen based on birth and birth only and they are flag bearers of a classist society with no chance of upwards mobility . They were proponents of a system which was deeply sexist and castiest. I am very glad that they were gotten rid…

Agree with most of what you said. Indira Gandhi was no saint and there were enough horror stories from her rein growing up that its ebossed on my brain.

But the royals weren't the goody-two-shoes as the article mentions. Most of them were so disconnected from the ground reality that it is hilarious to think they were capable of ruling anybody. The article mentions Jai's yearly visits to europe, in a time when half the country had barely enough to eat (this was before green or white revolution in the country). Gandhi's family was the from the same category, and I am glad none of them are in power anymore.

> Devi is not a last name

Agree..

> Even half a century ago, before the age of IDs, Indian women weren't allowed to hold the family name- before or after marriage.

We probably grew up in different parts of country, but I can definitely attest my grandmother having last name the same as my grandfather after marriage (her father's before getting married). I am almost certain that was the case with my great grandmothers too, but its a little hard to track it down to be 100% sure.

> often only higher caste women were referred to as Devi (goddess), and women from lower castes were referred to as Dasi (slave).

This was also not the case from where I grew up. For at least 100 years this was not the case. There was ridiculous caste segregation, and other casteist nonsense all over, but the naming didn't really reflect like this. Often the ruling class had some fancy titles, that the peasants didn't have, but they also didn't have any marker like 'dasi'.

Re: Jaipur’s Last Stand

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am aware of the origin of the words India and Hindu which I find bemusing. > So people visiting/invading the eastern parts of the Indu/Sindhu river were considering the people there as one civilisation if not one country. I conjecture it is natural for foreigners at that time to refer to the land (and hence the people residing there) east of Sindhu river as India/Indians. For them it was just an alien/different reg…

> I highly doubt if a farmer in a village in Kerala would consider a village in Punjab as belonging to his nation. Data point of one (and social circle of one), but this is how I feel, an average citizen coming from tiny village in one part of country. This is how I and everyone around me were raised. We are not rich, we used to be poor, but we never considered Punjab or Bengal or Tamilnadu or Mizoram were anything b…

> the question of 'others' not belonging to the same country never enters the discussion

Agreed, no one AFAIK thinks the other does not belong to India. There is a bit of racism in certain corners about the North East folks, considered as 'non Indian' primarily due to lack of awareness, since they do not conform to an 'Indian look'

The issue is more on 'outside my state' - as seen in response to the various riparian struggles across the country.

Some examples:

- The Shiv Sena in Mumbai was formed for this very reason

- No state except Tamil Nadu will accept having as its chief minister, someone who is not born from or speaking its language etc. The roots run deep.

---

Coming to the feeling of patriotism, Tamils are as or more patriotic than any other people when it comes to the concept of 'belonging to India', but these feelings are put under a lot of stress because of the unique situation, where people of their own race (outside of India) were given a short shrift both by local and national politicians. There is a lot of soul searching on what it means to be a Tamil. Obviously there is no consensus.

Re: Jaipur’s Last Stand

#53
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would say only the millennial generation onward do Indian citizens feel they belong to India Most of the people in my state, and a lot of Southern states do not feel that "we belong to India". India seems to expect us to fall to the ground and worship "India's language is Hindi", "India's religion is the Aryan worshipping flavour of Hinduism" and other nonsense, and we decline. We don't belong to anyone other tha…

Tall claims by a deranged hater. There is always some idiot spewing vitriol by bringing up north/west/east/south/up/down. The whole culture of south India IS India. What the fuck are all those Jurassic old temples there for? Built by all South Indian kings. For fucks sake Tamil the language is born of Lord Shiva(North Indian, just kidding) taught to sage Agastya on which this whole hate mongering language movement st…

From your writing above, I can see you are not from Tamil Nadu and that you need to educate yourself more.

Would it blow your mind if I told you that Shiva (or Vishnu) was not even worshipped by Tamils or in the ancient literature till it was brought in from the north?

The real religion of the Tamils is akin to ancestor worshi. Later, all the religions started invading and setting up roots ( actually Buddhism/Jainism took roots before current Hinduism came down ).

Re: Jaipur’s Last Stand

#55

What a ridiculous article. Nothing but fawning over aristocracy. Borderline misogynistic too with quotes like "Indira could not stomach a woman more good-looking than herself and insulted her in Parliament".

Yes, the article celebrates birth-based aristrocacy, and I absolutely cannot stomach it. But people do like that.

Think of all the attention the British Royal family gets.

Re: Jaipur’s Last Stand

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am aware of the origin of the words India and Hindu which I find bemusing. > So people visiting/invading the eastern parts of the Indu/Sindhu river were considering the people there as one civilisation if not one country. I conjecture it is natural for foreigners at that time to refer to the land (and hence the people residing there) east of Sindhu river as India/Indians. For them it was just an alien/different reg…

> I highly doubt if a farmer in a village in Kerala would consider a village in Punjab as belonging to his nation. Data point of one (and social circle of one), but this is how I feel, an average citizen coming from tiny village in one part of country. This is how I and everyone around me were raised. We are not rich, we used to be poor, but we never considered Punjab or Bengal or Tamilnadu or Mizoram were anything b…

I don't think I conveyed it explicitly enough.

When I wrote "...in a village in Kerala" I was referring to a farmer contemporary of Chanakya ~2500 years ago.

That period of India fascinates me; dozen or so Janapadas ruling India. Specifically, day to day lives of people; how they felt about their identities vis-a-vis region/state/nation.

Coming to your eloquently stated comment I 100% respect that and totally relate with your sentiment. In fact it more or less mirrors my life (growing up, being exposed to different cultures in college etc.,); except that I'm from a neighbouring southern state :-)

Re: Jaipur’s Last Stand

#57

Fascinating story. This brings fourth how complex a country India is. Before (and even during) the British rule India was a ruled tens of of such princely states each in turn had hundreds of low level feudal lords. While British did unify India in terms of governing it, the people always recognised themselves with the king's region. E.g., Mysore region, Hyderabad kingdom etc., India truly became a single political en…

> I would say only the millennial generation onward do Indian citizens feel they belong to India Most of the people in my state, and a lot of Southern states do not feel that "we belong to India". India seems to expect us to fall to the ground and worship "India's language is Hindi", "India's religion is the Aryan worshipping flavour of Hinduism" and other nonsense, and we decline. We don't belong to anyone other tha…

Those who tell you: - "India's language is Hindi" - "India's religion is the Aryan worshipping flavour of Hinduism" - and other similar things

are a pain in the neck not just for you but for everyone they will be in touch with. They will keep on creating new propaganda(just like the points above) targeted towards different groups of people so that they can annoy you and remain trending. Please keep in mind that they are not "India".

Re: Jaipur’s Last Stand

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nehru did fight for independence though.

By "the ... Gandi who did X" I meant, "as opposed to the other Gandhis who didn't X".

But you did agree Nehru fought for the independence, who's these current Gandhis are direct descendants.

Re: Jaipur’s Last Stand

#59
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tall claims by a deranged hater. There is always some idiot spewing vitriol by bringing up north/west/east/south/up/down. The whole culture of south India IS India. What the fuck are all those Jurassic old temples there for? Built by all South Indian kings. For fucks sake Tamil the language is born of Lord Shiva(North Indian, just kidding) taught to sage Agastya on which this whole hate mongering language movement st…

From your writing above, I can see you are not from Tamil Nadu and that you need to educate yourself more. Would it blow your mind if I told you that Shiva (or Vishnu) was not even worshipped by Tamils or in the ancient literature till it was brought in from the north? The real religion of the Tamils is akin to ancestor worshi. Later, all the religions started invading and setting up roots ( actually Buddhism/Jainism…

That seems to be patently false. The oldest Tamil literature is Sangam literature (except Tolkāppiyam which is about grammar and contains influences from people all around India) which also contains poems for Vishnu, shiva, Durga. Buddhism and Jainism came way later.

Re: Jaipur’s Last Stand

#60
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your writing above, I can see you are not from Tamil Nadu and that you need to educate yourself more. Would it blow your mind if I told you that Shiva (or Vishnu) was not even worshipped by Tamils or in the ancient literature till it was brought in from the north? The real religion of the Tamils is akin to ancestor worshi. Later, all the religions started invading and setting up roots ( actually Buddhism/Jainism…

That seems to be patently false. The oldest Tamil literature is Sangam literature (except Tolkāppiyam which is about grammar and contains influences from people all around India) which also contains poems for Vishnu, shiva, Durga. Buddhism and Jainism came way later.

AFAIK, Shiva is not mentioned at all in Sangam literature. The gods in both these cultures had similarities and a synthesis happened down the road.

for example, Murugan was the primary god and later assimilated with Shiva etc.

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