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Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

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Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the other thing: the US backed Israel because Israel was strong; Israel was not strong because the US backed them. At the end of the mandate period, Israel was the only country in the region with a real military, because the UK had just spent the last decade training and arming that military. At the time, the US was virulently antisemitic (see McCarthy era stuff for examples), as was most of europe.

Any sources for that claim? That's a super complicated issue and saying "because Israel strong!" seems a bit simplistic to me.

Well, the CIA released a report that said very clearly Israel would win the 6 day war[1] without any real trouble, and this is largely considered the point at which the US started backing Israel seriously.

Obviously, it's very complicated, but I think the basic picture of the middle east at the time is a bunch of states that were dysfunctional by design, with borders drawn up by powers like the UK who had the colonial modus operandi of creating states that were fraught with ethnic and sectarian tension, so these states would rely upon them for support.

When the mandatory period ended, the Israelis had two massive advantages: they had a classic, european style 'nation', not some post-colonial territory that had literally never worked as a nation ever; and they had an army that had been fighting a civil war against the palestinians for its whole existence, with british support and training. So it's not really surprising they win the first Arab-Israeli war. Then after that, they basically can build on this to secure more support and more weapons, and build stronger military institutions, etc.

[1]: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/markaz/2017/05/30/the-cias-ov...

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#132
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are religious extremists who believe that the entire land should be free of anyone whose religious beliefs do not match theirs and they don't mind killing innocent people, including their own people- women, children, etc. to further that goal. The fact that some countries such as Russia and Turkey won't label them as terrorists doesn't change their beliefs, nor does it change how dangerous they are not only to I…

Well stated. Not for nothing, people said the same thing about the Irgun - and they were right. There were some important differences. Point is, terrorism is not a solution. Yet "pacifists" are now willing to back terrorists here. Why don't they back freedom fighters in Kurdistan - no condemnation of the Turkish government for labeling them terrorists?

Yes, but those people aren't Jews.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#133
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well from an Israeli point of view how is this wrong then? Maintaining a good relationship with Saudi Arabia is a game changer for Israel.

Is the current world any different from Skyrim or Game of Thrones? Do you think it should be? Real, not facetious questions I'd be curious to discuss.

I think it should be different. I don't think people should expect Israel to start because it is one of the few countries that doesn't just sell arms for profit, but for specific strategic interests.

If you want Israel to start for some reason, I think it is fair that you need to call them Gods chosen people at the minimum, because your heightened expectations would warrant that.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#134
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Read their own literature, read Wikipedia, read any source on Hamas. This isn't a hidden agenda, this is their stated goal. Interesting you say that. I read around and nowhere does it say their aim is to "kill all non-muslims". From what I have read, it says the organisation wants to resist the Zionist occupation. Looking at the Wiki (perhaps the most easily available source of information), it references a book on…

> I went to a wedding of a my friend whose Grandpa is Jewish and at the wedding he was making a speech Sorry what the hell does this prove? Is this anecdote a theory that all Jews think that and somehow implement this thinking regarding Palestinians? ?

Let me break it down for you.

Do you know what the concept of Gentile[0]? It refers to a pretty clear distinction between a jew and non-jew.

Zionists have used this concept in the past to make a distinction between the "souls" of Jews and non-Jews. This has led to very discriminatory views towards minorities in Israel (just look at the polls/surveys for independent data).

This has led to a two-tier system in the minds of many Israelis, whereby they are the "chosen" people, and that Israel is their land, and their land only.

Now if you deny this to be case, explain why the treatment of Palestinians is so bad, that Israel blatantly violates international law to build settlements, and so on. I haven't seen any mass demonstrations in Israel against the government. Given Israel is a democracy, this must imply that a lot of people agree with this state of affairs, is it not?

[0][Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentile)

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#135
post #59

I’m not surprised that all statements from the Israeli government are filled with nothing. “We need to understand what happened” means “sorry not sorry”. This spyware is invaluable for the Israeli government because they have something that repressive Arab regimes want. These regimes can’t be bought with money, because some of them like Saudi Arabia and UAE have plenty of money. Israel needs friends and this is a gre…

> Sure, some people might be annoyed they were spied on I think it should be mentioned that other countries spy on citizens too. I fail to see what is the difference for Israel now. We have ample evidence from multiple whistleblowers that governments like to surveil their population. Furthermore, Israel hasn't had the support it has today. Especially at the time multiple countries tried to attack it. At the time it b…

> What you are really criticising

I wasn’t criticising them at all. I was merely pointing out where their interests and incentives lie.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's just PR bullshit like Amesys/Qosmos execs did 10 years ago pretending their surveillance software was only used to catch pedophiles and terrorists (despite human rights orgs being on their lists)... funny btw that 4 Amesys/Qosmos execs have just been indicted this month. However, as a french person i must agree Macron is a criminal and a terrorist. A criminal because he goes (as most presidents would) aga…

Wrong and exaggerated on so many levels. What you are saying is caricature of the left extremist way of thinking. No the yellow vest movement was nothing but peaceful, quite violent actually, throwing cobbles or molotov cocktails at police forces, using forklifts to force their way or destroy public properties, burning banks, setting cars on fire, etc. They were even allowed to demonstrate every week for at least 2 y…

> supposedly humanitarian

If they pick up people 50km out to sea and stick them somewhere where they won't die, that is in fact literally humanitarian.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mmm, I think at the end of the day, Israel is probably the only reliable strategic partner in a resource-rich region full of basketcases. At worst, they'll have to tone it down a bit. If the US ceases to back them, they can always find a new backer.

That's ridiculously short sighted and bordering on racist. Let's bomb all of Israel's infrastructure, arm various militias in the country and put economic sanctions on them for 20 years that limits the country to a grain-for-food programme and you'll quickly see Israel join in as a regional "basketcase."

Actually that's what was done to Israel since its inception. Steel forged in fire.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#138
post #59

I’m not surprised that all statements from the Israeli government are filled with nothing. “We need to understand what happened” means “sorry not sorry”. This spyware is invaluable for the Israeli government because they have something that repressive Arab regimes want. These regimes can’t be bought with money, because some of them like Saudi Arabia and UAE have plenty of money. Israel needs friends and this is a gre…

Well from an Israeli point of view how is this wrong then? Maintaining a good relationship with Saudi Arabia is a game changer for Israel.

Israel had such a relationship with the Saudis for a while, it just wasn't public.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#139
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong and exaggerated on so many levels. What you are saying is caricature of the left extremist way of thinking. No the yellow vest movement was nothing but peaceful, quite violent actually, throwing cobbles or molotov cocktails at police forces, using forklifts to force their way or destroy public properties, burning banks, setting cars on fire, etc. They were even allowed to demonstrate every week for at least 2 y…

Nice try linking the yellow vests to the capitol rioters. I doubt the Capitol rioters ever had widespread support like the yellow vests had. In late November 2018, polls showed that the movement had widespread support in France ranging from 73 to 84 percent.

You must not read all that much or realize how large the population of American Trumpublicans

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, some people might be annoyed they were spied on I think it should be mentioned that other countries spy on citizens too. I fail to see what is the difference for Israel now. We have ample evidence from multiple whistleblowers that governments like to surveil their population. Furthermore, Israel hasn't had the support it has today. Especially at the time multiple countries tried to attack it. At the time it b…

> What you are really criticising I wasn’t criticising them at all. I was merely pointing out where their interests and incentives lie.

Sorry, it wasn't meant as an objection. Didn't mean you with 'you'.
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