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Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B

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Re: Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B

#141
post #132

In Australia millennials, are allergic to credit cards. Credit card usage in that demographic is really low. Instead they prefer BNPL services as a credit mechanism. Banks have also responded and offer credit cards that don’t act like normal credit cards[1] [1] https://www.commbank.com.au/credit-cards/commbank-neo.html

Interesting product from CBA. Doesn't afterpay act more like a loan? From looking at this it looks like CBA is trying to get people to splash their money and manage the payback themselves. Those management fee's are also based on the idea you can get the card paid off in the month (CBA also use a rolling bill day. so they have a 30 day month and a 25 day payment period for that month. And those details are pretty opaque to newbies with cards. ).

You're effectively paying a somewhat high interest rate. From the looks of it CBA's low interest card would be comparable or cheaper if you were young and held a bit of rolling debt. And right now they have 15 months interest free on their 'low' rate card.

I think the difference that's better for afterpay customers is being able to have your purchase chunked into installments, effectively making it more like lay by.

Also, cba should have made it black so it didn't look you were holding a learners plate credit card.

Our Australian banks are lazy.

Re: Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B

#142
post #132

In Australia millennials, are allergic to credit cards. Credit card usage in that demographic is really low. Instead they prefer BNPL services as a credit mechanism. Banks have also responded and offer credit cards that don’t act like normal credit cards[1] [1] https://www.commbank.com.au/credit-cards/commbank-neo.html

I'm an early 20s Kiwi zoomer, so somewhat similar demographic. I don't have a credit card and see no point in it. I use a debit card for everything. I don't think most of my friends have credit cards either, but maybe they do and I don't notice.

I've received roughly $3000 in rewards from my credit card usage over the past six years. Not a life-changing amount, but not completely insignificant, either. I think the biggest thing that I've lost is data privacy, but I would think that debit cards incur the same cost. I've never used any of the benefits like extra insurance/warranty, but it's nice to know they exist.

Chargebacks on debit cards are also much more painful than on credit.

Re: Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B

#143
post #58

As a foreigner in Australia, I can't help but to think that Australians really don't know how to handle finances and are too irresponsible to use a credit card, so Afterpay and Zip stepped in. Maybe it's because I grew up in Europe, but "Don't buy it if you can't afford it" has served me well. The majority of people I know just use credit cards for the perks but never miss a full payment.

Being responsible is a tough call give that institutions in Australia charge enormous interest rates on credit cards, typically 20%+. I find it staggering that they can get away with it actually. Regardless, many (less ‘responsible’) consumers get burnt by this and spend years paying down debts, so I’m not surprised these BNPL players have seen such success. Also they’ve done well appealing with younger consumers. Ho…

>institutions in Australia charge enormous interest rates on credit cards, typically 20%+.

I think that is the case as well in the US. Credit card interest rates are atrociously high. Which makes it difficult for people who get caught in the CC debt-loop to get out.

Re: Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B

#144
post #132

In Australia millennials, are allergic to credit cards. Credit card usage in that demographic is really low. Instead they prefer BNPL services as a credit mechanism. Banks have also responded and offer credit cards that don’t act like normal credit cards[1] [1] https://www.commbank.com.au/credit-cards/commbank-neo.html

I'm an early 20s Kiwi zoomer, so somewhat similar demographic. I don't have a credit card and see no point in it. I use a debit card for everything. I don't think most of my friends have credit cards either, but maybe they do and I don't notice.

> I don’t have a credit card and see no point in it.

If you use a credit card like a debit card (pay it off in full every month) it can be rewarding depending on the card. I make $75-$100 cash back every month on my credit card.

Re: Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B

#145
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds 100% like America. :-/

I'm not American, so I have less insight than you perhaps, but I'd say America is much more affordable than Australia. In Australia most jobs are in Sydney and Melbourne. Perth is mostly for mining and Brisbane doesn't have many tech jobs. Real estate prices in Sydney and Melbourne are in the million(s), but incomes are ~100+k AUD. Some people earn 200k+ as a principal engineer, but that's pretty much it. In America…

I think you're underselling Sydney a bit there - there is a google campus, Atlassian, and a lot of finance companies offering high salaries. Not SV level, but pretty close.

Melbourne is pretty decent for high end tech jobs, but not as good as Sydney.

Certainly real estate is extremely expensive and broken, but it's not like New Zealand where the real estate is almost as expensive but the pay is much lower. I had to leave for this reason - New Zealand's housing crisis is much worse in real terms.

Re: Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B

#146
post #132

In Australia millennials, are allergic to credit cards. Credit card usage in that demographic is really low. Instead they prefer BNPL services as a credit mechanism. Banks have also responded and offer credit cards that don’t act like normal credit cards[1] [1] https://www.commbank.com.au/credit-cards/commbank-neo.html

I'm an early 20s Kiwi zoomer, so somewhat similar demographic. I don't have a credit card and see no point in it. I use a debit card for everything. I don't think most of my friends have credit cards either, but maybe they do and I don't notice.

This is obviously country specific and I don't know anything about the banking/payment environment in NZ, but here in the US credit cards offer a ton of benefit to consumers, so much so that it's almost always stupid to not use one.

Re: Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B

#147

Afterpay's business model relies on high merchant fees which merchants, under their merchant agreement, are not allowed to pass onto their customers. So from customers point of view, afterpay often appears to be cheaper than other payment channels such as credit card / paypal. Afterpay roll into a new merchant, cannibalise existing payment systems and at leat for the low margin merchants I work with, who are not savv…

> which merchants, under their merchant agreement, are not allowed to pass onto their customers. Is this audited by Afterpay perhaps? A company might just increase prices due to quarterly losses and not specifically because of this fee, even if it does contribute to a large amount of margin loss.

Merchants are not allowed to add a surcharge line item for using Afterpay. Instead they have to increase base pricing across the board to cover their increased costs. Afterpay are quite happy for merchants to do this, what they don't like, and what they actively police, is merchants adding a line item passing Afterpay costs onto the consumer.

The macroeconomic impact is potentially enormous. Your mission is to capture an entire generation of consumers (millennials) to use your payment mechanism, and embedded in that is a hidden cost which is comparable to consumer VAT (called GST in Australia) that the sovereign nation also levies. Eventually regulators will take notice of this massive some of money.

A comment I once read of HN as while back resonates deeply with me, that is how broken and unsolved the problem of paying for things electronically remains, in terms of costs, reliability, security and ease of access. Inspite of all the incredible transformation that has occurred over the past 30 years. You think about all the money that moves around for electronic payments, in an ideal world, the net levy should be a fraction of a %, not the 1.5%-3.0% that is charged by credit cards or the 6-8% that BNPL charge.

Re: Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B

#148

Afterpay's business model relies on high merchant fees which merchants, under their merchant agreement, are not allowed to pass onto their customers. So from customers point of view, afterpay often appears to be cheaper than other payment channels such as credit card / paypal. Afterpay roll into a new merchant, cannibalise existing payment systems and at leat for the low margin merchants I work with, who are not savv…

> which merchants, under their merchant agreement, are not allowed to pass onto their customers. Is this audited by Afterpay perhaps? A company might just increase prices due to quarterly losses and not specifically because of this fee, even if it does contribute to a large amount of margin loss.

It means that can't price discriminate specifically against Afterpay as a payment form. The merchant is free to set prices to whatever they want (as OP notes: the cost of the expensive Afterpay service will be borne by all customers), but Afterpay can't cost the customer more.

Re: Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to elaborate?

Oh man, I would have honestly said Square. Product development at Square seems to be way way better than Twitter, compare the last 3-years between the two. Twitter hasn't really done much with it's platform, they never really done much with monetization and other platforms are eating into their space (patreon, onlyfans, substack). I mean they literally invented tiktok before tiktok with Vine and that acquisition just…

Credit Karma ? It was acquired by Intuit, not Square

Re: Square to acquire Afterpay for $29B

#150

How does Afterpay make money if they do not charge interest?

Capital recycling: Here's how Afterpay earns its margin.

How Afterpay makes money

BNPL companies like Afterpay earns their revenue in two ways: Merchant fees from retailers: the company takes a percentage fee of every dollar that is transacted via its platform. This commission rate, referred to as “Afterpay Income” varies is between 3% and 6%, varying depending on the size of its is retail partners; and Late fees from consumers: the company charges late payment fees of $7-$10 per late payment.

Breaking down Afterpay income

Merchants pay Afterpay a commission, referred to as Afterpay Income. This commission ranges between 3% to 6%. The more volume you do with them, the lower the rate I gather. In FY20, the income as a percentage of underlying sales, or Gross Merchandise Value (GMV) transacted through the platform was 3.9%. This indicates that there is a portion of retail partners that pay less than 4% of fees to Afterpay. Hot Tip: If your retail business offers Afterpay and you’re paying more than 4%, then perhaps it’s time to get a price check.

There are costs of sales associated with earning Afterpay income.

Afterpay’s cost of sales include: - Provision for bad debts (customers that are at risk of not paying); - Other variable transaction costs (processing fees); and - Financing costs (cost of working capital).

After deducting these variable cost of sales, Afterpay’s gross profit was 2.25%, referred to as Net Transaction Margin (NTM).

In other words, for every $100 that you spend using Afterpay, the company collects $2.25 of gross profit.

Finance costs

Like most businesses, a constraint to Afterpay’s growth is working capital. Afterpay needs cash to fund the gap from when funds are paid to its retailers to when it eventually receives the cash from consumers in six weeks.

Let’s break this down. Say you buy a $1,000 pair of Yeezys via Afterpay. The retailer will get paid $940 upfront, being $1,000 less a 6% commission. On the same day, Afterpay collects its first installment from the consumer of $250. Afterpay is out of pocket by a total of $690. Aftepay will collect the remaining $750 from the consumer over six weeks.

Afterpay needs capital to fund this $690 gap. It does so by borrowing from several Tier 1 lenders: Goldman Sachs, CitiBank, Bank of New Zealand and NAB. The average interest rates on these facilities ranged from 1.65% to 3.2% in FY20.

How it really makes money: Capital recycling

So summing up, after starting with a 4% merchant fee, Afterpay’s Net Transaction Margin drops to a mere 2.25% after paying transaction fees, interest and bad debts.

Doesn’t sound that special, does it?

Well yeah, it doesn’t.

But here comes the big reveal that gets investors salivating about the BNPL business model.

It boils down to the company’s velocity of recycling capital.

Traditional banks make money by earning the difference of interest between what they charge to borrowers (mortgage holders), versus what they pay to depositors (savers). Most banks make a net interest margin of ~2% per annum.

But what the banks earn in a year, Afterpay makes in six weeks. Customers are required to repay Afterpay over 42 days (six weeks), and Afterpay makes the same amount of commission even if they decide to pay it earlier.

In fact, it’s better for Afterpay if customers pay off their debt faster, because it means that Afterpay can redeploy the capital faster.

To put this in practical terms, let’s assume that a consumer spends on average $100 per transaction via Afterpay.

If this consumer only uses Afterpay once per year, Afterpay makes $2.25 per year of transaction margin and a 2.25% Return on Capital (ROC) before operating expenses.

But if the consumer uses it 10 times per year, Afterpay makes $22.50 per year. The initial $100 of capital that Afterpay borrowed is redeployed every time a new transaction is made. The return on capital is now 22.50% because the same $100 is now generating $22.50 of annual net transaction dollars.

In its FY20 report, Afterpay reported that its longest cohort of users are transacting up to 25x per annum — which implies that Afterpay could be generating a whopping 56% of ROC per annum on its oldest users.

Source: Jason Andrew

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