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Why women in tech are so angry all the time

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Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#71

Post by bArray »

lkrubner wrote: post #55
bArray wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you think it would go showing anonymous death threats to the police? I can tell you because we’ve tried! Not well. They laugh you out of the station. There's several reasons for reporting anonymous death threats (even if I find it weird that police would openly laugh in your face): 1. If you need to make a case in the future you have documented evidence. You can bring a police report to court. 2. When statis…

“ She is publishing under her real name ” You are responding to her yet you use the 3rd person. You meant to write: “You are publishing under your real name” This is a complicated use of first person and third person: “ She sounds as if she genuinely believes somebody will send her anthrax through the post - do you really believe that is a real possibility or do you think her battle with sexism in the workplace has g…

The confusion here is that I didn't realize I was speaking to the author. She clarified this in a response comment with 'I am the author'.

Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#72

Post by dabockster »

andreskytt wrote: post #51

I do apologize. People, including me, don’t go spend their lives talking to computers because they are great at talking to people. I’m bad at reading social context, probably on the autism spectrum and many of my colleagues over the last 30 years have been like me. There’s a high chance I’ve expressed what’s called a microagression in the post without intending to so. I can’t tell. I often can’t even tell I offended…

Diagnosed autistic person here. I do not use my medical condition as an excuse to create microagressions of any sort. In fact, I consider using autism as an "out" in this case to be selfish to both the person being offended as well as everyone out there with diagnosed autism.

If you're able to go to work everyday and function in society without any extra assistance, then you do not get a pass to insult others needlessly. Go home and rethink your life.

Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#73

Post by dabockster »

bArray wrote: post #70
st3fan wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This response is 100% victim blaming. There is not a single recognition. No single question. No empathy. It is 100% "it is your fault" and "it is because of your own choices and actions". bArray - you are the problem here.

> This response is 100% victim blaming. I lock my front door at night and I imagine you do too. In an ideal society no crime occurs, and we can all leave our doors unlocked at night. In reality - if we can make small changes to our lifestyle to limit our exposure to risk, we tend to do them. But that all rides on the assumption that I accept the designation of 'victim' - I already argued against 'Listen to and believ…

> It's not at all possible for us both to agree that sexism in the workplace is bad

But it is possible to have empathy for others, which clearly you have none of.

Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#74

Post by dabockster »

readflaggedcomm wrote: post #7

>Next time you go to ask yourself why women in tech are so angry, ask yourself why you’re not angry with them. I'm not angry with you, I'm saddened. You've told them they've gotten to you deeply, and provided a blueprint on how to go further. Want to be angry? Keep feeding the trolls. Is that the plan? Why? Edit: I don't understand this response and silence. You all want this?

At some point you have to document it and take the risk. Otherwise, it keeps being a he-said-she-said game restricted to internal HR reports and nothing improves.

Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#75

Post by Volundr »

jm__87 wrote: post #61
bitwize wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women as a class are harassed and worse by men because men as a class allow it. They may not even be aware if it -- male privilege affords them that. Men have the moral obligation to get aware of it, and to take action to ensure that the male culture that allows it is ended. This requires cultivation of difficult skills such as shutting up, not mansplaining, and listening to women speaking their truth. And prioritizi…

Do you believe you have power to change how other women behave towards men? Because I as a guy, have little to no power to change what other guys believe about women or how their beliefs affect their behavior towards women.

As a guy, I pretty strongly disagree with this. I may not be able to change their beliefs, but by actively calling out their behavior, I can sure as heck change their behavior. When people know that saying something awful or treating someone poorly is going to make for a really awkward conversation at best, and possibly lead to being socially ostracized, they tend not to do those things.

Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#76

Post by bArray »

dabockster wrote: post #73
bArray wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This response is 100% victim blaming. I lock my front door at night and I imagine you do too. In an ideal society no crime occurs, and we can all leave our doors unlocked at night. In reality - if we can make small changes to our lifestyle to limit our exposure to risk, we tend to do them. But that all rides on the assumption that I accept the designation of 'victim' - I already argued against 'Listen to and believ…

> It's not at all possible for us both to agree that sexism in the workplace is bad But it is possible to have empathy for others, which clearly you have none of.

> But it is possible to have empathy for others, which clearly you have none of.

To show how much empathy I have, I'm going to write a post named "Ask HN: Let's talk about how much empathy I have" [1].

Addressing a few points here:

> But with your lack of empathy and obvious lack of respect for original human thought and emotion, I decided to come back and post this.

It's not original if a large number of people think in the same way, create bubbles and reinforce preconceived ideas about a subject, it's group think. You then get annoyed because somebody with an actually original thought challenges your own.

If you have something to argue then please do, otherwise claiming that I am less than human or lack human traits is not exactly going to progress any conversation. If you assume other people argue in bad faith, there is no way for us to move forwards productively.

> What you are doing is hurting people and is holding this industry back.

Open discussions are not holding the industry back. Debate is not holding the industry back. It's a lack of these things that hold the industry back - when a woman for example is treated in a sexist manner and people refuse to speak.

To push an ideology you must win hearts and minds. Your point here is that you want me to shut-up for the sake of your cause.

> Being online behind a username does not give you a pass to treat someone less than human.

I don't say anything here I wouldn't say to you in person. The difference would probably be that when I listen to what you say, you'll see that I'm not without empathy, I simply disagree with your opinion.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28029434

Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#77

Post by dabockster »

bArray wrote: post #76
dabockster wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not at all possible for us both to agree that sexism in the workplace is bad But it is possible to have empathy for others, which clearly you have none of.

> But it is possible to have empathy for others, which clearly you have none of. To show how much empathy I have, I'm going to write a post named "Ask HN: Let's talk about how much empathy I have" [1]. Addressing a few points here: > But with your lack of empathy and obvious lack of respect for original human thought and emotion, I decided to come back and post this. It's not original if a large number of people thin…

> To show how much empathy I have, I'm going to write a post named "Ask HN: Let's talk about how much empathy I have" To show how much empathy I _don't_ have, I'm going to comment on this guy's submission because it's totally because of my comment and I have totally no understanding of others xD [1]

That's you. That's what you sound like. And you're confirming a lot of what I had to say in that post.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28031038

Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#78

Post by jm__87 »

Volundr wrote: post #75
jm__87 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe you have power to change how other women behave towards men? Because I as a guy, have little to no power to change what other guys believe about women or how their beliefs affect their behavior towards women.

As a guy, I pretty strongly disagree with this. I may not be able to change their beliefs, but by actively calling out their behavior, I can sure as heck change their behavior. When people know that saying something awful or treating someone poorly is going to make for a really awkward conversation at best, and possibly lead to being socially ostracized, they tend not to do those things.

Maybe you are particularly persuasive, but the guys I have known who harassed women would not take anyone seriously if they were told they are being inappropriate. They may stop in that moment but will go right back to it the next day. Based on my own experiences, men who are fairly conscientious to begin with and listen when someone tells them they are being jerk are generally not the problem.

Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#79

Post by proc0 »

mthoms wrote: post #17
proc0 wrote: post #4

Just because men do a bad thing, doesn't mean every single man is responsible for that. Not to mention all men have mothers, and they play a huge part in how their children grow up to treat others. To solve a problem, the root cause must be found, and the root cause of harassment is NOT other men. Sure men could help, but articles like this seem to demand it, like they're yelling at men, as a group, for the actions o…

>Just because men do a bad thing, doesn't mean every single man is responsible for that. Where in the heck did you get that from? The author made no such claim. Anywhere. I also didn't feel like the author was "yelling at men". I felt she was trying to get us to understand her frustration. Confident, respectful men don't get offended by posts like this. She's not talking about me (generally speaking that is - I know…

The tone of the article is dealing in general terms. For example the closing part:

> Next time you go to ask yourself why women in tech are so angry, ask yourself why you’re not angry with them.

Is that for everyone? It sounds to be directed at the party that would not be angry, which is hyperbole for caring, and why would any women not care about this issue? Therefore this sounds like it's directed at men, at least implicitly.

It's an angry article after all, why wouldn't it be pointing fingers. I'm just saying there's no one to blame but the individual culprits of those behaviors / actions.

Re: Why women in tech are so angry all the time

#80

Post by proc0 »

bitwize wrote: post #22
proc0 wrote: post #4

Just because men do a bad thing, doesn't mean every single man is responsible for that. Not to mention all men have mothers, and they play a huge part in how their children grow up to treat others. To solve a problem, the root cause must be found, and the root cause of harassment is NOT other men. Sure men could help, but articles like this seem to demand it, like they're yelling at men, as a group, for the actions o…

Women as a class are harassed and worse by men because men as a class allow it. They may not even be aware if it -- male privilege affords them that. Men have the moral obligation to get aware of it, and to take action to ensure that the male culture that allows it is ended. This requires cultivation of difficult skills such as shutting up, not mansplaining, and listening to women speaking their truth. And prioritizi…

So you're saying women need men's protection?
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