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The rise of never-ending job interviews

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Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that and I’ve seen several companies in practice echo what you’re saying. However, I fail to understand why they don’t simply make better use of contracts and probationary periods to solve that specific problem.

Contacts in what sense? Probationary periods could work but it's a coordination problem. Such periods are the norm in Europe (coz it's very hard to fire someone) but for an at-will place like the US, given that the industry doesn't really do probationary periods in general, any employer who starts doing it would be at a disadvantage.

*contracts

In the sense of offering signing bonuses for term lengths that get repo’d if the contract length is broken.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason they want to remove the risk is because it takes years to prune bad talent.

In my long and storied career, well long at least, every single truly heinous, project-killin', crazy person actually interviewed pretty well. Honestly, I don't have a good solution to the problem.

Fire fast. Use that 90 day try out period. Contract-to-hire.

In the past I would never have been interested in a contract-to-hire. These days though if the company and role is right, and this an option to short-cut a ridiculous interview process, I might spring for it.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#43
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies don't want to do job training anymore. Instead of a general background and attitude check, they need to know if the candidate has all of the individual skills that will be used on the job.

This a hundred times over. I still remember in 2020 multiple places asking me "I see you've used .NET core, what *version* have you used?". I had a kind of career crisis/breakdown, where I realised no one gave a shit about anything except my utility as a walking set of tech keywords. Accepting that it wasn't working for me was one of the best things I've done for my career.

did you expect others to have empathy for you?

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#44

If your application process starts with a human being—even better a technical human being—reaching out to me, followed by 2-3 interviews, followed by an offer, I am already on your side. If your application process starts with a HackerRank, followed by 2 phone interviews followed by on-site, followed by team matching, I will not be on your side. Oh and if there's random month long gaps in between stages, I will espec…

the quality of your experience will depend on the desperation of the candidate employer.

more competition = worse time for you

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason they want to remove the risk is because it takes years to prune bad talent.

In my long and storied career, well long at least, every single truly heinous, project-killin', crazy person actually interviewed pretty well. Honestly, I don't have a good solution to the problem.

The solution is to accept that shitty candidates can't always be filtered out and to have a probation period to remove them before they do too much damage to your codebase/morale.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#46
In domains in which the underlying domain is complex, with an irreducible informational complexity, as well as rich and frequently highly significant interactions, there's a frequent emergence of faddish, or ritual-driven, behaviours. Both seek to reduce risks and accountability, as well as to increase credible signalling of traits.

Both sides of the technical recruiting transaction (job-seeking and recruiting) exhibit these behaviours and tendencies (what to wear, how to format resumes, presentation, side projects, for seekers, interviewing, tests and screens, and other filtering practices for hiring teams).

The consequence is a tremendous amount of friction, inefficiency, and fear-driven lore. Some years ago a senior Google staffer commented that they'd found a guaranteed hiring heuristic: "No". That is, reject all candidates.

My response was that if this was serious (and it was at least partially), that this was a profound sign of weakness within Google: an inability to seek out and onboard talent successfully.

There are other possibilities.

It could be that the notion of private firms hiring highly-skilled talent is inherently flawed.

I've speculated that one of the justifications for the ancient Egyptians to build pyramids was as a combination of a skills-development, skills-retention, skills-demonstration, and brain-drain-mitigation programme. From what I've read there's at least some independent informed speculation along similar lines.

One of the functions of writing a book, a notoriously unremunerative practice, is as a credible signalling of skill and ability. (And of book-writing capabilities, for what that's worth.) Books are very fat sales brochures.

In a tech world in which typical tenures are measured in months or single-digit years (2--3 years being typical from what I understand), and correlations between any hiring practices and actual performance ... at best weak, there's an inherent issue.

There's also the question of equitability of a process in which employers have vastly greater access to information on individual prospects than prospects do on companies or hiring managers / management teams. George Akerlof's "Market for Lemons" suggests that more information makes markets more efficient, though my fear is that highly asymmetric information access further tilts the employment market in the hiring firms' favour.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1879431

http://libgen.rs/scimag/10.2307%2F1879431 Some of my earlier fad/information theoretic musing here:

https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/62uroa/clothin...

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#47
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies don't want to do job training anymore. Instead of a general background and attitude check, they need to know if the candidate has all of the individual skills that will be used on the job.

This a hundred times over. I still remember in 2020 multiple places asking me "I see you've used .NET core, what *version* have you used?". I had a kind of career crisis/breakdown, where I realised no one gave a shit about anything except my utility as a walking set of tech keywords. Accepting that it wasn't working for me was one of the best things I've done for my career.

Could you elaborate on how accepting it improved your career? Did it change the way you interview or the kinds of jobs you accept?

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#48
post #18

What’s happening is that companies want to completely remove risk from the hiring process. In the real world, you cannot remove risk. You can manage it, but you cannot remove it. Asking candidates to go through 6 interviews before making a decision and not telling them when a decision will be made signals a risk adverse culture that cannot make decisions.

Companies don't want to do job training anymore. Instead of a general background and attitude check, they need to know if the candidate has all of the individual skills that will be used on the job.

John Ousterhout: A little bit of slope makes up for a lot of y-intercept.

https://clairehu.com/2014/02/18/a-little-bit-of-slope-makes-...

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#49

> That’s a question Mike Conley, 49, grappled with earlier this year. The software engineer, based in Indiana, US, had been seeking a new role after losing his job during the pandemic This is ageism. I hope he realized this after 10 6 rounds of interviews. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19507732

Ageism absolutely is a problem in our field (I've seen/heard many people even openly boast of ageist hiring practices), but I don't know that ageism was the reason in that quoted case.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#50

What’s happening is that companies want to completely remove risk from the hiring process. In the real world, you cannot remove risk. You can manage it, but you cannot remove it. Asking candidates to go through 6 interviews before making a decision and not telling them when a decision will be made signals a risk adverse culture that cannot make decisions.

I don't know if you've been through the firing process on either side, but after you go through a couple of dozen of these, and the hit to the morale/performance they entail, not to mention emotions involved, you tend to at least try to vet better to avoid such huge distractions in the future (a lose-lose for everyone involved!)

One Fortune 500 company I worked for was honest enough to admit that the number one reason employees left was because they didn't like their boss.

It's a huge risk on the other side as well. Not to mention that management usually gets to control the narrative and not the employees.

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