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Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

arstechnica.com

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Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#201

Post by __turbobrew__ »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #173
__turbobrew__ wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t need a union. I tell my employer “either I work remotely or I am gone to one of the ten job solicitations I get a week”. Tech workers have enormous individual leverage and there are so many job opportunities out there — the power is already in your hands. Be a part of the market change by putting your money where your mouth is and moving to more adaptive companies if your company fails to adapt.

That doesn’t fix the employer abuse or poor treatment, it just makes it someone else’s problem, ruining the next human who comes along. Lets prevent the ruining or suffering of our fellow humans.

It makes it the exec’s problem because all of their competent workers left and they can’t attract new talent.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#202

Post by toomuchtodo »

__turbobrew__ wrote: post #201
toomuchtodo wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t fix the employer abuse or poor treatment, it just makes it someone else’s problem, ruining the next human who comes along. Lets prevent the ruining or suffering of our fellow humans.

It makes it the exec’s problem because all of their competent workers left and they can’t attract new talent.

The suffering can persist longer than it takes for the market to reach equilibrium and/or improve. Market forces alone are insufficient, as capitalism in general has demonstrated time and time again.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#203

Post by NonContro »

3gg wrote: post #188
NonContro wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies pay you minimum you're willing to accept. People don't have a habit of accepting jobs they know will cause their personal budgets to run red.

That is indeed a more accurate statement.

As an aside, its also a a reason why immigration from poor countries is so dangerous - people in the 2nd/3rd world have much simpler lifestyles and are thus willing to accept much lower salaries.

Note, I am from Ukraine, and I am speaking from personal experience moving to the USA. My American friends eat out all the time, buy very expensive home appliances, and tip extremely generously.

I live a frugal life since this is the standard of living I am accustomed to from my homeland. I was also willing to accept the lowest salary legally possible just to get into the country, which is already a huge upgrade to my income.

I also can't then change jobs easily, since the visa is tied to my employer.

If Tech workers want to maintain this state of demand, they should really oppose immigration from poor countries, such as requiring that the H1B visa has a maximum cap of 10% from any one country, which will have the effect of limiting the number of Indians who enter. Setting an additional maximum cap of 49% males from any one country would also be good to encourage gender diversity, instead of flooding in male migrants and then forcing companies to do it.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#204

Post by trunnell »

trunnell wrote: post #113
cratermoon wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd happily go back to working in the office. If I had an actual office , not a 4-foot wide folding table that's part of a line of eight of them in 12 rows in a room the size of a basketball court. I haven't had an "office" to go to work in since 2000. I've shared spaces with anywhere from three to all of my co-workers. "Recent research shows that such offices result in 73 per cent less face-to-face interaction, and…

"Private offices with doors that close" - that's the standard at Fog Creek Software, the company behind Stack Overflow, Trello, and other great products. Microsoft also provides offices (or at least used to). These companies might be on to something. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2008/12/29/the-new-fog-creek-... An opposing perspective: note that the cost for private offices is very high vs. cubes. Assuming Class A…

Oops, those costs should be per month, not per year... but now I can't edit the post.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#205

Post by trunnell »

bradlys wrote: post #168
trunnell wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Private offices with doors that close" - that's the standard at Fog Creek Software, the company behind Stack Overflow, Trello, and other great products. Microsoft also provides offices (or at least used to). These companies might be on to something. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2008/12/29/the-new-fog-creek-... An opposing perspective: note that the cost for private offices is very high vs. cubes. Assuming Class A…

I think those are rates per year - not per month. So maybe make that contribution to your paycheck per year - not per month. (Kinda surprised no one here knows that and hasn’t mentioned it yet) Source in case you don’t believe me: https://www.squarefoot.com/leasopedia/dollars-cents-much-cos...

You're right! My bad.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#206

Post by trunnell »

geodel wrote: post #146
trunnell wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's wisdom in this comment. But note that the dynamics of the conversation are a function of company culture. "Make execs comfortable" is a reflection of culture. Another path is to simply hold leaders accountable for output rather than working style. After all, is it acceptable for a team to under-deliver if they worked hard & worked in the office? Usually not. Working in the office is not sufficient to produce…

Yes, you are right in holding leaders accountable. But I feel in my experience leadership has mafia like power over employees. IN this situation what's theirs is theirs but what's mine is always up for negotiation. > One last tip: collaborating is much easier when a team is 100% remote or 100% in the office, but split is much harder. While this maybe true for best outcomes. IMO even flexible work policy is better for…

Agreed, I've seen a hybrid schedule work well, where a team chooses which days they will all be in the office.

> However lately all important tech decisions comes from "enterprise architects"

Honestly that sounds terrible.

> of course travel is not approved for lowly engineers...

Maybe look around for better company to work for. There are great teams out there.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#207

Post by bradlys »

trunnell wrote: post #205
bradlys wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think those are rates per year - not per month. So maybe make that contribution to your paycheck per year - not per month. (Kinda surprised no one here knows that and hasn’t mentioned it yet) Source in case you don’t believe me: https://www.squarefoot.com/leasopedia/dollars-cents-much-cos...

You're right! My bad.

Kinda changes your whole point. $10k/yr for a $400k/yr engineer is really not much at all. $10k/month is but $10k/yr is definitely not. Rounding error, basically.

And - personally - I might even take the $10k/yr pre-tax deduction for a nice private office. Certainly much cheaper than trying to do it at my own place.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#208

Post by __turbobrew__ »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #202
__turbobrew__ wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes it the exec’s problem because all of their competent workers left and they can’t attract new talent.

The suffering can persist longer than it takes for the market to reach equilibrium and/or improve. Market forces alone are insufficient, as capitalism in general has demonstrated time and time again.

unions are necessary when there is a power imbalance between workers and corporations. There is currently not a power imbalance between tech workers and corporations so unions are not necessary for tech workers. For other professions where workers have a low amount of power I believe that unions "are good", but for tech I think it is unnecessary. If you are a competent tech worker you have the choice of 100's of potential places to work.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#209

Post by jatone »

cratermoon wrote: post #132
3gg wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link, but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Why do you think the company would reimburse you for $3500/mo for freeing up office space or using less of it? A company basically pays you for your cost of living. That's why pay is high in the Bay Area or NY, and why you take a massive pay cut when you move out. If you choose to work remotely or sign up for shitty work conditions, they are not going to rei…

> A company basically pays you for your cost of living. That's why pay is high in the Bay Area or NY, and why you take a massive pay cut when you move out. That's the essence of another issue companies are forcing with remote work. It puts the lie to any claim that compensation is based on business value. Do I not provide the same value to the business if I live in Omaha, Nebraska rather than San Jose, California? Bu…

any company that told me the value of my work is tied to the location at which i accomplish it would immediately hit a wall with me being willing to work there.

it simply is bonkers they've tried to pull that line out.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#210

Post by bamboozled »

matz1 wrote: post #9
vhold wrote: post #4

I wonder how much of it is driven by the company leadership owning very expensive real estate that would lose a lot of value once tech workers are not forced to spend money into those rental or real estate markets.

This is why zoning is really bad. Those company could have converted some of those space into housing. Provide it to the employee as benefit for cheap/free. I believe quite significant number of employee would happily live on campus.

How is zoning really bad ?
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