Your Lifestyle Has Already Been Designed (2010) • Hacker News Board

Re: Your Lifestyle Has Already Been Designed (2010)

#171

Post by philwelch » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 9:05 PM UTC

RandomLensman wrote: post #117

codemonkey-zeta wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is short-term pleasure wrong? This is a great question, and firmly in the realm of philosophy, so there will never be a definitive answer, only ones which you might find useful. I prefer the Stoic's attitude toward pleasure. To (very loosely) paraphrase Marcus Aurelius: For each evil characteristic a man can have, the gods gave also a counteracting virtue. For dishonesty, honesty. For fear, courage, etc. To cou…

I am more a proponent of some forms of hedonism. An emperor talking about indifference to pain or not seeking pleasure isn't someone I could follow philosophically.

Epictetus was a slave.

Re: Your Lifestyle Has Already Been Designed (2010)

#172

Post by coldtea » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 9:07 PM UTC

deltron3030 wrote: post #139

coldtea wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the party line, but it's just some sub-cultures, teens and troubled personalities that "express themselves" through fashion (the most shallow thing you can do, a juvenile thing in any case), the "early adopters", and then a huge industry copying them at various levels and with various delays. On top of that, there are also top-level mandates "this year let's push yellow strayjackets" or whatever. This results…

Fashion is basically part of a real world interface for the social groups you interact with, a way to tweak the first impression. It's only junk for you as an outsider not understanding the social groups of insiders dressing a certain way. It's valuable and sells because social ladders are everywhere, we're all apes to a degree. It's not a suprise that the epic centers are urban melting pots with a higher population…

>Fashion is basically part of a real world interface for the social groups you interact with, a way to tweak the first impression.

Yes. But it's a shallow real world interface, for shallow groups and facile identities, mostly used to associate with teenagers and juvenile group forming.

I dont say it's not a thing, or don't have a use. I say the use is bad.

Re: Your Lifestyle Has Already Been Designed (2010)

#173

Post by ImaCake » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 9:17 PM UTC

sdumi wrote: post #3

I liked the post and I'm afraid that the author is right on so many points. Lots of persons seem to be "uninterested in serious personal development", is this by some design or just natural evolution of modern society? I guess it was always like this, but I can also imagine that there are entities (ie, companies, governments, people) that are doing some thing or the other trying to keep the status quo: keep the peopl…

>Lots of persons seem to be "uninterested in serious personal development"

I don't think being uninterested in disengaging from consumer capitalism is akin to being uninterested in personal development. Being pro-mindfullness and anti-consumer is valid, but so is being pro-consumer and uninterested in mindfullness (because they are chasing other goals, which could be considered part of personal development). The mistake the author makes is assuming their goals are the best way to go, and then prescribing solutions for that.

The author's point of view is actually just fairly narrow. There is nothing wrong with their view, or the ideas they suggest for improving one's life if you share his perspective. But a lot of people simply don't share that view. As a counterpoint, some people (not mine) think the highest goal in life is to work as much as possible. They will do so, and probably consume a lot in order to maximise their time working. That goal and lifestyle might seem unsavoury to me or you, but it is another way to personal development: that you can, personally, be a really good worker.

Re: Your Lifestyle Has Already Been Designed (2010)

#174

Post by codemonkey-zeta » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 9:18 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #171

RandomLensman wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am more a proponent of some forms of hedonism. An emperor talking about indifference to pain or not seeking pleasure isn't someone I could follow philosophically.

Epictetus was a slave.

Agreed, but there are certain people I've experienced who simply can never acquiesce to stoic doctrine.

To poorly paraphrase Epictetus (from "Against followers of the academy"):

When a man had hardened himself against what is manifestly clear, what argument, what flaming sword can I bring to bear against him?

Re: Your Lifestyle Has Already Been Designed (2010)

#175

Post by ImaCake » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 9:20 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #153

Weak article. Mostly virtue signaling. Yes, your lifestyle was once "designed". That probably peaked in the late 1950s. See "American Look". [1] That's the high point of industrial design. Also the era of tailfins. That was when the US first had far much manufacturing capacity than it really needed. As for fashion, go watch this clip from The Devil Wears Prada.[2] All this used to be coordinated from New York, when M…

I think the article has worth if you are unfamiliar with these ideas. You don't think to question your fasion until someone exposes you to the right concepts. For someone who is interested in anti-consumer mindfullness then this article is probably really good. But if you are not that kind of person it is indeed a weak article.

Re: Your Lifestyle Has Already Been Designed (2010)

#176

Post by postoak » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 9:28 PM UTC

nautilius wrote: post #119

postoak wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or don't have them =)

Comments like this always remind me of the interview with some kids dumpster diving behind some grocery store that I read many years ago: “Look at all those suckers going into the store to buy stuff with money, when you can just pick it up for free behind the store. Idiots!”

That is a funny quote, but I don't think it's the same as questioning the idea that everyone needs to have kids. Going to the dumpster is a bad idea if you value your health for everyone, but not having kids isn't clearly bad unless you only think of having kids in economic/religious terms (need to produce more workers/believers, or having support in old age).

Re: Your Lifestyle Has Already Been Designed (2010)

#177

Post by bordercases » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 9:35 PM UTC

postoak wrote: post #40

ruined wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the ideal conception of it, but practically, power also plays a very large role. Firms don't get to "try things" without lots of resources already, any novel startups may simply be acquired and assimilated or even shut down, large existing organizations are capable of sustaining failures despite market conditions, extra-market rules may be implemented by firms with political access, and if enough of the supply…

I agree with you, but in evolution there are also power differentials due to organism size/features or population leading to some organisms/species having an advantage at a certain point in time. I think this could be considered analagous (not exact mapping) to corporation power at a given time.

These appeals to power are disconnected from the selection pressure given in the original proposition though, which was based solely on consumer choice, and which would have been more relevant to the original idea of lifestyles being designed vs spontaneous.

Re: Your Lifestyle Has Already Been Designed (2010)

#178

Post by chrisco255 » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 9:37 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #149

chrisco255 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't have a food shortage. Crop yields and agricultural productivity are at all time human civilizational highs.

This is a fragile argument. Systems can often be at peak before crashing.

It's a factual argument. Our civilization has been peaking in agricultural productivity decade after decade for 200 years. Your hypothetical argument is not statistically likely. Sure, on a long enough time frame some natural disaster will occur that causes a crisis, but the fundamental mechanics of photosynthesis and ag science aren't going anywhere.

Re: Your Lifestyle Has Already Been Designed (2010)

#179

Post by gentleman11 » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

ilamont wrote: post #5

Western economies, particularly that of the United States, have been built in a very calculated manner on gratification, addiction, and unnecessary spending. Calculated, like in planned-economy, directive-from-the-top? I disagree. A lot of the "fluff," as the author describes it, is excess capital finding its way to things people find pleasurable, whether it be dope, travel, beauty, or rock and roll. Purveyors of suc…

There are job postings for mobile app/game developer positions requiring x years of designing slot machine casino games as a prerequisite. Calculated addiction and whale hunting is a major part of the economy right now

Re: Your Lifestyle Has Already Been Designed (2010)

#180

Post by KozmoNau7 » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

captainmuon wrote: post #13

ilamont wrote: post #5

Western economies, particularly that of the United States, have been built in a very calculated manner on gratification, addiction, and unnecessary spending. Calculated, like in planned-economy, directive-from-the-top? I disagree. A lot of the "fluff," as the author describes it, is excess capital finding its way to things people find pleasurable, whether it be dope, travel, beauty, or rock and roll. Purveyors of suc…

Counterpoint: What do you think "fashion" is? I used to think there were some very cool, fashion-adept people, who have the ability to predict what will considered modern next year. The reality is, the clothing industry decides what to produce at least 6-12 months in advance. It's not like they produce everything and public opinion decides in the end what is "cool". Granted, the industry tries to predict what will be…

There are cool people with the seemingly uncanny ability to predict fashion, but it's a bit of a trick. They do something that's different and can be monetized, and the industry grabs on to that and tries to push it as The Next Big Thing, through advertising, magazine contacts and social media influencers. Meanwhile, the production lines are running full-tilt so they can have the clothes in stores for when the right level of desire/FOMO has been built up.

At that point, the cutting edge fashionable people are already on to the next thing, and the cycle continues.

Since it's impossible for ordinary people without industry contacts to be ahead of the curve, do you try to follow the fashion trends, knowing that you'll always be at least a half step behind?

Or do you stick with tried and true stalwarts, such as slim-to-regular cut dark denim jeans, Oxford shirts, sports jackets and so on, never being super fashionable, but also certainly not sartorially hopeless?

Trends are almost always pushed or at least encouraged by financial interests.