Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work • Hacker News Board

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#141

Post by closeparen » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

animanoir wrote: post #91

todd3834 wrote: post #10

I’ve been part of a lot of these conversations and it is important to note that there is a significant percentage of employees that want to go back to the office. The trick is how to please everyone. It is easy to say, let those who want to come back come and those who don’t stay home. However those that want to go back say it is because they want to be surrounded by their coworkers. Having gone back to the office vo…

I find astonishing that some people want to go back into the cage.

I find it astonishing that people think sitting in their own homes all week is reasonable behavior for an adult, let alone a behavior that others should accommodate.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#142

Post by adjkant » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:31 PM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #139

adjkant wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've very much liked what my company/team/office is doing so far: 1. No hard rules on when to be in the office, simply that you must be close enough to make it into the office when you need to. 2. All meetings are remote first unless everyone is in the office (protects disadvantaging people who don't choose to come in) 3. A slack channel for people to coordinate when they will be in the office. This is big as it mean…

The return on investment in physical presence is conversations that aren’t mediated by Zoom. If you’re going to have a rule of using Zoom anyway, there’s no point.

I think you're significantly underestimating the value of many other aspects:

- Things that happen outside of meetings, which are what the remote-video rule is for, not everything categorically. e.g. debugging together when in, white-boarding, the quick desk visit, etc. As I said, teams can (and do) coordinate to come in on the same day

- Socially, the return being happier workers, better teamwork to fall back on when you're remote, etc.

- The people who do not have a good home office setup for many various reasons that affect both young and old.

There are countless benefits, there's no magical "this is the reason to be in the office" that you can reduce to. The "video conferencing by default" rule is the tradeoff for not disadvantaging people who want to retain their less frequent office time schedule of the pandemic.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#143

Post by cheshire137 » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

It feels so old fashioned to ban remote work.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#144

Post by youeseh » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:45 PM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #136

r00f wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you find it selfish that someone is forced to start commuting to office again, only because somebody wanted to be surrounded by coworkers? I've been fully remote since 2010, and I would be completely frustrated if I was told "You need to sit at the office now, because John is feeling different in half-empty office"

I find it selfish that someone expects me to treat them like a teammate when they can’t be bothered to show up.

What does "show up" mean when the technology allows you to "show up", and fulfill all of a job's requirements remotely?

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#145

Post by caskstrength » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

todd3834 wrote: post #10

I’ve been part of a lot of these conversations and it is important to note that there is a significant percentage of employees that want to go back to the office. The trick is how to please everyone. It is easy to say, let those who want to come back come and those who don’t stay home. However those that want to go back say it is because they want to be surrounded by their coworkers. Having gone back to the office vo…

This looks like balanced and well articulated position. Would be nice if executives of big companies stop being hypocrites and provided such explanations to their employees instead of "bUt mUh cOllAbOrAtIvE cUltUrE!!1" and "performance gotten approximately 3 billion times worse since WFH started".

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#146

Post by geodel » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

trunnell wrote: post #67

todd3834 wrote: post #10

I’ve been part of a lot of these conversations and it is important to note that there is a significant percentage of employees that want to go back to the office. The trick is how to please everyone. It is easy to say, let those who want to come back come and those who don’t stay home. However those that want to go back say it is because they want to be surrounded by their coworkers. Having gone back to the office vo…

There's wisdom in this comment. But note that the dynamics of the conversation are a function of company culture. "Make execs comfortable" is a reflection of culture. Another path is to simply hold leaders accountable for output rather than working style. After all, is it acceptable for a team to under-deliver if they worked hard & worked in the office? Usually not. Working in the office is not sufficient to produce…

Yes, you are right in holding leaders accountable. But I feel in my experience leadership has mafia like power over employees. IN this situation what's theirs is theirs but what's mine is always up for negotiation.

> One last tip: collaborating is much easier when a team is 100% remote or 100% in the office, but split is much harder.

While this maybe true for best outcomes. IMO even flexible work policy is better for people like me who are stuck in hellish commutes 5 days a week. 2-3 days in office is similar outcome and avoiding 3 hr /day commute times for couple of days a week.

> it's easy to swivel the chairs around for a quick impromptu chat.

This used to be true for me also 5-7 years back. However lately all important tech decisions comes from "enterprise architects" and what's left is sufficient for a webex call.

Also in my case team is distributed and of course travel is not approved for lowly engineers to have face to face collaboration. But nonetheless commute is mandatory. So the rule seems collaborate with remote co-workers but only from office.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#147

Post by cratermoon » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

trunnell wrote: post #113

cratermoon wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd happily go back to working in the office. If I had an actual office , not a 4-foot wide folding table that's part of a line of eight of them in 12 rows in a room the size of a basketball court. I haven't had an "office" to go to work in since 2000. I've shared spaces with anywhere from three to all of my co-workers. "Recent research shows that such offices result in 73 per cent less face-to-face interaction, and…

"Private offices with doors that close" - that's the standard at Fog Creek Software, the company behind Stack Overflow, Trello, and other great products. Microsoft also provides offices (or at least used to). These companies might be on to something. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2008/12/29/the-new-fog-creek-... An opposing perspective: note that the cost for private offices is very high vs. cubes. Assuming Class A…

I fondly remember days in my last office. It was ground-level in a small building, with a window that faced a small tree-lined space behind the building. I could sit at my desk and think while watching the birds and squirrels, and on a wintry day the snow would hang on the leaves.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#148

Post by caskstrength » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

biasedbrain wrote: post #102

h4waii wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said, I do want to point out that some of those who want to go back "to be surrounded by their coworkers" might be missing the fact that those who don't want to back might be because they don't want to be surrounded by their coworkers; they want to be surrounded by people they choose to have relationships with, not ones foisted upon them.

Didn't they choose their jobs, and with that, their co-workers? I'd like to see them argue "I don't want to come to the office because I don't like to be surrounded by people like you" as well. Is that a common argument? I think people who are unhappy with their working conditions should just look for another job. It's fine to try to convince bosses that changes would be beneficial, but I don't have much sympathy for…

> Didn't they choose their jobs, and with that, their co-workers?

What do you mean? Did they tell you about guy with questionable hygiene and that other guy with chronic allergy that makes him cough all day long during your interview?

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#149

Post by jdhn » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

I don't think this will be limited just to tech companies. Personally, after looking over our reopening plans, I don't think I'm going to be going in unless forced to. Why should I drive into the office, wear an uncomfortable mask for 8 hours, and have to deal with the ridiculous cleaning requirements when I can just commute from my bedroom to my kitchen to my home office (OK, my living room) and not deal with masks or a commute?

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#150

Post by cratermoon » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

geodel wrote: post #140

cratermoon wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd happily go back to working in the office. If I had an actual office , not a 4-foot wide folding table that's part of a line of eight of them in 12 rows in a room the size of a basketball court. I haven't had an "office" to go to work in since 2000. I've shared spaces with anywhere from three to all of my co-workers. "Recent research shows that such offices result in 73 per cent less face-to-face interaction, and…

While I totally agree with what you just said. "Recent research" part is dangerous and somehow works in favor employers overall. It is for very simple reason that employers can sponsor vastly more research that can save business a penny while making employees' life miserable along the way.

> works in favor employers overall

Knowledge is power. Research has certainly been turned to socially questionable ends. See, for example, the iffy research churned out by the tobacco companies to counter the overwhelming evidence that smoking causes cancer, heart disease, and a host of other issues.