Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work • Hacker News Board

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#131

Post by 3gg » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

trunnell wrote: post #127

3gg wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link, but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Why do you think the company would reimburse you for $3500/mo for freeing up office space or using less of it? A company basically pays you for your cost of living. That's why pay is high in the Bay Area or NY, and why you take a massive pay cut when you move out. If you choose to work remotely or sign up for shitty work conditions, they are not going to rei…

It's just a thought experiment. It's one thing to say offices are good. It's another to say their benefit outweighs the cost. I think the added cost may be worth it, but I'd be surprised to find majority agreement. > A company basically pays you for your cost of living I'd argue that companies generally pay market rates for employees, which in a well-functioning market will be well above the cost of living.

For what it's worth, I had the luck of working in an actual office, with walls and doors that close (it honestly sounds quite absurd to describe it this way; how low have we sunk?) and I prefer it very much that way for the same reasons described in your link.

And agree on the last statement, I had over-simplified that, though I did add the word "basically".

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#132

Post by cratermoon » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

3gg wrote: post #120

trunnell wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Private offices with doors that close" - that's the standard at Fog Creek Software, the company behind Stack Overflow, Trello, and other great products. Microsoft also provides offices (or at least used to). These companies might be on to something. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2008/12/29/the-new-fog-creek-... An opposing perspective: note that the cost for private offices is very high vs. cubes. Assuming Class A…

Thanks for the link, but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Why do you think the company would reimburse you for $3500/mo for freeing up office space or using less of it? A company basically pays you for your cost of living. That's why pay is high in the Bay Area or NY, and why you take a massive pay cut when you move out. If you choose to work remotely or sign up for shitty work conditions, they are not going to rei…

> A company basically pays you for your cost of living. That's why pay is high in the Bay Area or NY, and why you take a massive pay cut when you move out.

That's the essence of another issue companies are forcing with remote work. It puts the lie to any claim that compensation is based on business value. Do I not provide the same value to the business if I live in Omaha, Nebraska rather than San Jose, California?

But, the company has offices in Menlo Park, you're more valuable because you're closer to them, you say? But the company also has offices in Omaha, and a dozens other places around the world.

This isn't theoretical: companies have already said that pay scales for remote work will be tied to location, regardless of the contribution a person makes to the company.

Employers are going to have to reckon with the fact that if I can chose to live more comfortably, I can also choose to expect to compensated for my contributions rather than my postal code. Am I worth a six-figure salary or not?

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#133

Post by hiq » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

diego_moita wrote: post #59

Media playing stupid "war" stories again. They only like click bait stories that sell news, not stories that tell the whole picture. There are millions of small variations in this "war", to the point that it is not even a war, but markets being creative in their own way. There are the startups in high paying areas that hire remotes for a fraction of the salary they'd have to pay locally. There are the people with ski…

> The salary is not Berlin/Zurich/Paris high

This makes it sound like these 3 are somewhat equivalent in terms of compensation in terms of salary, but to be clear, they're really not, as a quick look at levels.fyi indicates.

> Without effort I can save 40% of it for retirement.

I've been reading a bit about personal finances lately, and I realized that being able to save x% only tells you part of the story. More precisely, the comparison between two places in terms of saving rates are only relevant if the only two scenarios are to remain in one place or the other indefinitely. Let's say you want to retire in Berlin eventually, you might be better off saving 10% working in SV than saving 40% working in Paris. If you're flexible about where you'll retire, you should maximize the nominal amount you're saving.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#134

Post by didibus » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:13 PM UTC

I work at one of those, and the word "at war" is a massive hyperbole. There's discussions and evaluation of if and how to best offer this new benefit with pleasing everyone and not hampering the actual work. There's questions of tax legalities, of budgeting for offices, and things like that that are also being considered.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#135

Post by Nemrod67 » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

paulryanrogers wrote: post #53

sharken wrote: post #20

Besides this war between companies and tech companies, I'm glad that I live in a part of the world where vaccine mandates are not happening.

> I'm glad that I live in a part of the world where vaccine mandates are not happening. Haven't heard this sentiment much. So I'm curious what's problematic about such vaccine mandates?

well there are lots of demonstrations in Europe against vaccine mandates, ofc it ain't on TV wink wink

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#136

Post by closeparen » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

r00f wrote: post #129

todd3834 wrote: post #10

I’ve been part of a lot of these conversations and it is important to note that there is a significant percentage of employees that want to go back to the office. The trick is how to please everyone. It is easy to say, let those who want to come back come and those who don’t stay home. However those that want to go back say it is because they want to be surrounded by their coworkers. Having gone back to the office vo…

Don't you find it selfish that someone is forced to start commuting to office again, only because somebody wanted to be surrounded by coworkers? I've been fully remote since 2010, and I would be completely frustrated if I was told "You need to sit at the office now, because John is feeling different in half-empty office"

I find it selfish that someone expects me to treat them like a teammate when they can’t be bothered to show up.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#137

Post by thedevilslawyer » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #126

thedevilslawyer wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? The most I've seen on job boards are about 200 to 400 remote companies. Even assuming a magnitude more no more than a couple thousand. Your assumption on literal numbers are off and need significant correction.

There are estimated 10,7 million companies in the US. US has roughly 1/ world's GDP, so we can estimate that there are at least 40 million companies in the world (a figure around 100M+ looks more realistic estimate to me, but let's stick to 40M). Simple DDG search [1] says that somewhere around 45-80% of companies are pro-remote. Which definitely puts the number of such companies into TENS of millions. [1]: https://d…

Tech companies?

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#138

Post by toomuchtodo » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #19

New_California wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are cancer on private companies and should be abolished.

Please don't post like this - it breaks the site guideline against name-calling (which applies also to arguments) and generally goes against the desired culture of the site, which is curious conversation. Of course you can still have your views; you just need to post about them in the key of curiosity. That includes, btw, respect for the opposite point of view, since curiosity is somewhere short of certainty. https:/…

> That includes, btw, respect for the opposite point of view, since curiosity is somewhere short of certainty.

Noted! I will endeavor to be more curious and less certain.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#139

Post by closeparen » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:20 PM UTC

adjkant wrote: post #105

todd3834 wrote: post #10

I’ve been part of a lot of these conversations and it is important to note that there is a significant percentage of employees that want to go back to the office. The trick is how to please everyone. It is easy to say, let those who want to come back come and those who don’t stay home. However those that want to go back say it is because they want to be surrounded by their coworkers. Having gone back to the office vo…

I've very much liked what my company/team/office is doing so far: 1. No hard rules on when to be in the office, simply that you must be close enough to make it into the office when you need to. 2. All meetings are remote first unless everyone is in the office (protects disadvantaging people who don't choose to come in) 3. A slack channel for people to coordinate when they will be in the office. This is big as it mean…

The return on investment in physical presence is conversations that aren’t mediated by Zoom. If you’re going to have a rule of using Zoom anyway, there’s no point.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#140

Post by geodel » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

cratermoon wrote: post #70

todd3834 wrote: post #10

I’ve been part of a lot of these conversations and it is important to note that there is a significant percentage of employees that want to go back to the office. The trick is how to please everyone. It is easy to say, let those who want to come back come and those who don’t stay home. However those that want to go back say it is because they want to be surrounded by their coworkers. Having gone back to the office vo…

I'd happily go back to working in the office. If I had an actual office , not a 4-foot wide folding table that's part of a line of eight of them in 12 rows in a room the size of a basketball court. I haven't had an "office" to go to work in since 2000. I've shared spaces with anywhere from three to all of my co-workers. "Recent research shows that such offices result in 73 per cent less face-to-face interaction, and…

While I totally agree with what you just said. "Recent research" part is dangerous and somehow works in favor employers overall. It is for very simple reason that employers can sponsor vastly more research that can save business a penny while making employees' life miserable along the way.