Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work • Hacker News Board

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#121

Post by srswtf123 » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

3gg wrote: post #106

todd3834 wrote: post #10

I’ve been part of a lot of these conversations and it is important to note that there is a significant percentage of employees that want to go back to the office. The trick is how to please everyone. It is easy to say, let those who want to come back come and those who don’t stay home. However those that want to go back say it is because they want to be surrounded by their coworkers. Having gone back to the office vo…

> How do we make our execs feel more comfortable to let those who want to work home do so? How do we make it so easy that no exec has to worry about losing their job because they agreed to something that didn’t use to be normal? Looks like you work for a relatively good company. Others have, for example, threatened with dropping health insurance unless the workers come back -- yes, in the middle of a pandemic. I am n…

Agreed, this is the struggle. Look at whats being asked here, its frankly absurd:

How do we make our execs feel more comfortable ...

How do we make it so easy that no exec has to worry ...

Some of the corporations I've worked, the execs seemed to absolutely revel in their ability to make their employees uncomfortable and worried. I give not one whit to their comfort and worries so long as they act like sociopaths or worse. This class of people hasn't had to worry in a generation. Hasn't been uncomfortable in decades.

So the pandemic reveals the charade, and we're just supposed to all agree that is isn't a charade and go back to acting like good human resources? We have been so overworked, for so long, that we get a long moment to rest -- the pandemic -- and realize the culture, the society, its just awful. What have these stewards of the economy given us, and guided us toward? Empty lives, endless work, a seemingly dying ecosystem, endless consumption, pointless entertainment.

This isn't class struggle, its class war. A war the lower class is clearly already losing.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#122

Post by zxcvbn4038 » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

Working remotely turned out to be the perk I never knew I wanted. I get back 3-4 hours a day that I would spend commuting, I have much better options for food at home, I get to see a lot more of my wife then I used to. And it makes sense - all of the infrastructure I work with is in the cloud, I haven’t had to roll out a crash cart in a data center in a decade. Almost everyone I work with is overseas, I don’t need to be in the office to have a zoom meeting with them. I’m very tempted to relocate someplace like Virginia which is absolutely beautiful but I would have not considered before because there isn’t much for me to do there professionally (I had to look up what “rockwool” was). The only thing that worries me is that if I relocate myself and the work-from-home movement fizzles out or someone decides I need a salary reduction because I live in a less expensive area then I’m stuck.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#123

Post by 3gg » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

srswtf123 wrote: post #121

3gg wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do we make our execs feel more comfortable to let those who want to work home do so? How do we make it so easy that no exec has to worry about losing their job because they agreed to something that didn’t use to be normal? Looks like you work for a relatively good company. Others have, for example, threatened with dropping health insurance unless the workers come back -- yes, in the middle of a pandemic. I am n…

Agreed, this is the struggle. Look at whats being asked here, its frankly absurd: How do we make our execs feel more comfortable ... How do we make it so easy that no exec has to worry ... Some of the corporations I've worked, the execs seemed to absolutely revel in their ability to make their employees uncomfortable and worried. I give not one whit to their comfort and worries so long as they act like sociopaths or…

I am with you 200%. Just giving the original poster the benefit of doubt.

I think the post makes the mistake of assuming that we are one equal footing with corporate execs and that this is, somehow, a conversation. But let's just give them room to expand on their thoughts.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#124

Post by cbushko » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

My company is staying fully remote with 'hub-offices' for those who want to get together. I plan to stay working from home even though the office is an 8 minute commute. I like my co-workers but I just want to work on my craft and build things. Commuting and hanging out at the coffee machine wastes time that I could be doing things.

My company is also experimenting with a 36 hour work week based on the Icelandic Study. As per the study, in order to maintain productivity, organizations need to clean up their processes. Specifically targeted meetings, more documentation and less interruptions. I am sure my coworkers will also be more productive just to keep the shorter work week - I know I will.

8 hours in an office != productivity. Quiet time and the ability to do deep work = productivity. I wish more managers and execs understood this.

For my own productivity, the company that I am looking at for inspiration is Hashicorp. https://works.hashicorp.com/ looks to be one of the best documents on how to do remote work. If anything, it is all well thought out.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#125

Post by elzbardico » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

Lots of middle managers entire existence depend on carefully built fictions of usefulness and politics that are hard to manufacture outside of a office.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#126

Post by Andrew_nenakhov » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 4:59 PM UTC

thedevilslawyer wrote: post #109

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No-poach stuff? There are literally millions of companies that allow remote work, are they all part of the no-poach cartel?

Are you sure? The most I've seen on job boards are about 200 to 400 remote companies. Even assuming a magnitude more no more than a couple thousand. Your assumption on literal numbers are off and need significant correction.

There are estimated 10,7 million companies in the US. US has roughly 1/ world's GDP, so we can estimate that there are at least 40 million companies in the world (a figure around 100M+ looks more realistic estimate to me, but let's stick to 40M).

Simple DDG search [1] says that somewhere around 45-80% of companies are pro-remote. Which definitely puts the number of such companies into TENS of millions.

[1]: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=percentage+of+companies+allowing+r...

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#127

Post by trunnell » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 4:59 PM UTC

3gg wrote: post #120

trunnell wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Private offices with doors that close" - that's the standard at Fog Creek Software, the company behind Stack Overflow, Trello, and other great products. Microsoft also provides offices (or at least used to). These companies might be on to something. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2008/12/29/the-new-fog-creek-... An opposing perspective: note that the cost for private offices is very high vs. cubes. Assuming Class A…

Thanks for the link, but I'm not sure about the conclusion. Why do you think the company would reimburse you for $3500/mo for freeing up office space or using less of it? A company basically pays you for your cost of living. That's why pay is high in the Bay Area or NY, and why you take a massive pay cut when you move out. If you choose to work remotely or sign up for shitty work conditions, they are not going to rei…

It's just a thought experiment. It's one thing to say offices are good. It's another to say their benefit outweighs the cost.

I think the added cost may be worth it, but I'd be surprised to find majority agreement.

> A company basically pays you for your cost of living

I'd argue that companies generally pay market rates for employees, which in a well-functioning market will be well above the cost of living.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#128

Post by edem » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

There is a *much* worse trend than trying to force office time: forcing non-stop pair programming. It is not only counter-productive, but also extremely tiring for many people. I'm pretty sure that the rationale behind it is that installing human spyware is less controversial than installing software spyware on the employees' computers to monitor remote workers.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#129

Post by r00f » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

todd3834 wrote: post #10

I’ve been part of a lot of these conversations and it is important to note that there is a significant percentage of employees that want to go back to the office. The trick is how to please everyone. It is easy to say, let those who want to come back come and those who don’t stay home. However those that want to go back say it is because they want to be surrounded by their coworkers. Having gone back to the office vo…

Don't you find it selfish that someone is forced to start commuting to office again, only because somebody wanted to be surrounded by coworkers?

I've been fully remote since 2010, and I would be completely frustrated if I was told "You need to sit at the office now, because John is feeling different in half-empty office"

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#130

Post by pm90 » Sun, Aug 01, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

cdrini wrote: post #97

pm90 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see why those that want to work remotely need to suppress their needs for those that do not. It’s one thing to have the freedom to choose the option you’re comfortable with, but to force it on those unwilling to so doesn’t seem right. You’re right that it won’t be the same. We’re past the point where everyone being in the office was the unquestioned norm because we never really tried mass remote work on a lar…

Seems like the comment was asking for some solutions. It didn't propose going back to where things were.

Ah, apologies I missed that. I guess what I want to stress is that forcing everyone to return to the office should not be considered a valid option.