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Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

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Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#51

I’ve been part of a lot of these conversations and it is important to note that there is a significant percentage of employees that want to go back to the office. The trick is how to please everyone. It is easy to say, let those who want to come back come and those who don’t stay home. However those that want to go back say it is because they want to be surrounded by their coworkers. Having gone back to the office vo…

> Many of these problems seem solvable without forcing employees who want to work remote to come in. Agreed. Most of the issues that you highlighted that cause employees to prefer being in-office (loneliness, children and other distractions at home, work/life balance) are not attributable to being remote per se. Exacerbated by it, sure. But we should probably be addressing those problems head-on in a more intentional…

> wanting to go back to the office to reinvigorate their sense of social participation. But I'm not sure that's something we should be encouraging. (It actually runs counter to the work/life balance problem you mentioned.)

I have seen this multiple times already - overtime and long hours that are largely composed of socialization in disguise or very ineffective work. Mostly serving as a way to fill in void or have someone to talk to.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#52

I’ve been part of a lot of these conversations and it is important to note that there is a significant percentage of employees that want to go back to the office. The trick is how to please everyone. It is easy to say, let those who want to come back come and those who don’t stay home. However those that want to go back say it is because they want to be surrounded by their coworkers. Having gone back to the office vo…

I certainly don’t have all the answers, but a few observations: 1) Starting remote seems tougher than going remote. It’s a bit rough on families but maybe an extended in person onboarding trip is a good compromise. 2) Face to face connections have to be renewed every once in a while. Co-location trips are going to become a cost of being remote, I think. 3) Some people come across badly over video. Not sure if there’s…

I started a job remotely. A lot of the problems with remote onboarding to me were because of broken things that conversations could quickly fix, making fixing it properly too onerous.

For example, when I was setting up my local environment I needed a token. What token? Not specified. So I had to ask someone else and wait for a reply. It turns out I could have gotten the token myself.

In a prior job, I needed at least 10 instructions from senior developers on setting up my local environment as the readme was very out of date. It caused a lot of problems for the next guy coming on board.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#53
post #20

Besides this war between companies and tech companies, I'm glad that I live in a part of the world where vaccine mandates are not happening.

> I'm glad that I live in a part of the world where vaccine mandates are not happening.

Haven't heard this sentiment much. So I'm curious what's problematic about such vaccine mandates?

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#54
post #28

I’ve been part of a lot of these conversations and it is important to note that there is a significant percentage of employees that want to go back to the office. The trick is how to please everyone. It is easy to say, let those who want to come back come and those who don’t stay home. However those that want to go back say it is because they want to be surrounded by their coworkers. Having gone back to the office vo…

Well said, I do want to point out that some of those who want to go back "to be surrounded by their coworkers" might be missing the fact that those who don't want to back might be because they don't want to be surrounded by their coworkers; they want to be surrounded by people they choose to have relationships with, not ones foisted upon them.

I’m a generally introverted person who prefers to work from home and performs better either at home or with a private office.

That said, I have worked for many different companies, and rarely felt like working relationships were ‘foisted’ upon me.

I generally enjoyed interacting with colleagues because we were working towards a common goal - i.e. we had something meaningful which we cared about in common.

The one company where this wasn’t true had a cultural separation between product and infrastructure engineering, with a lack of mutual respect that flowed from the top of the organization.

My point is that if people don’t feel common purpose with their coworker that enables them to find satisfaction in their working relationships, that points to a company culture problem.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#55
post #6
post #4

I wonder how much of it is driven by the company leadership owning very expensive real estate that would lose a lot of value once tech workers are not forced to spend money into those rental or real estate markets.

I think it's that the companies themselves own expensive real estate, campuses, etc.... not necessarily the leadership.

It's probably, to some degree, a mixture of both. Rarely ever do decision makers not factor their own interests into their decision making process or skew/distort the situation to their advantage in some way so it's not as clearly linked to their self-interest.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#56
post #47

I came out of retirement last fall for a while to work at an AI startup. One of the really nice things about the all-remote setup was randomly assigned long virtual coffee breaks every week. Given that I had a lot of samples (N ~= 50) of co-workers opinions on remote vs. in office work, I feel comfortable making a generalization: young single people mostly wanted to go back to the office while people in relationships…

"randomly assigned long virtual coffee breaks every week" Really? As in you and someone else are each assigned a meeting with each other on Zoom (or whatever) at a given time? Would your co-workers not socialize, otherwise? It sounds like it was a positive experience for you, which is great.

The number of people on the Zoom virtual coffees were nominally 5 people, but in practice, 2 to 4 people were able to attend on average.

Yes, I did enjoy this a lot. Off topic, but when I retired (again) after this gig, I re-started offering my free mentoring service (1 hour talk on the phone or Zoom, some people just want to exchange emails) again, and have enjoyed helping people.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#57
post #31
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could but Apple will look pretty dumb spending 5 billion on the spaceship only to sell it a few years later for (presumably) a lot less.

A cult with huge pockets would love the Apple spaceship. Perhaps one could timeshare to multiple cults.

[deleted]

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#58
"There is no apparent justification for resisting remote work besides a sort of management control-freak insecurity, proponents argue."

This seems naive, disingenuous, or just lazy reporting. In my experience, neither "management" nor "workers" are monolithic blocks. Some are in favor of more WFH, some not.

Most people I work with want to return to the office or are indifferent. Reasons cited include, too many distractions at home (kids/family), work/life structure (more below), team social interaction, improved face to face collaboration & mentoring (new hires), office perks, and so on.

Not everyone has the discipline, independence, and communication skills necessary to be successful at WFH. In my experience, WFH is especially challenging for many early career individuals.

We should be realistic about human nature and organizational dynamics. There are significant down sides to teams if some people are in person and some are remote. The remote people will inevitably miss out on many in person / adhoc conversations. Having less information than peers can hurt job performance. This leads to people feeling like second class employees in the long run. We saw the same thing with remote employees pre COVID.

I say all this as someone who is generally in favor of WFH.

Remote teams need to work & communicate differently from in person teams to be successful. For example, we spend a lot more time on written communication (docs, emails, chat, etc) compared to in-person adhoc desk/whiteboard conversations.

I think the more reasonable organizational approach is to have fully remote teams and fully in person teams. This enables everyone to get roughly what they want/need. Team processes and expectations can be tailored to the team's situation.

The big question then becomes, how do companies refactor large orgs into remote and in person teams? My guess is that it's going to involve a lot of team changes and disruption to the org. This is likely why sr. managers are trying to make the transition in a slow, controlled way.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#59
Media playing stupid "war" stories again. They only like click bait stories that sell news, not stories that tell the whole picture.

There are millions of small variations in this "war", to the point that it is not even a war, but markets being creative in their own way.

There are the startups in high paying areas that hire remotes for a fraction of the salary they'd have to pay locally.

There are the people with skills extremely rare that can demand remote only.

There are the contract workers or consultants in one area of expertise.

If, from the start you say no to FAANG and Microsoft you'll find lower salaries but a lot more in interesting opportunities.

I work remote for a startup in Europe. The salary is not Berlin/Zurich/Paris high but allows me to live like a king in the Canadian Prairies. Without effort I can save 40% of it for retirement. And also I can truly make a difference in the company. Couldn't be happier.

Re: Big tech companies are at war with employees over remote work

#60
"I believe this narrative is being funded by the commercial real spectate industry. They are absolutely fucked. Like Wile E Coyote running over a cliff, they are desperate to not look down. In December 2019, I asked some guys in wealth management, what’s a hot tip, and they were all about Commercial Real Estate, it never goes down! I laughed, but then wondered, what would make it go down? Anyway, that question is now answered.

I’ve been working with a company that have done studies on remote work, at the beginning 4% of employees wanted to work from the office 100% of the time. 6 months later it was 2%."

Source: @dade_ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27992011

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