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Ssheven: A modern SSH client for Mac OS 7-9

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Re: Ssheven: A modern SSH client for Mac OS 7-9

#91

Post by [deleted] »

blibble wrote: post #67
retrac wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you mention EC, it uses floating point. Good ol' FLOPS is not a wholly useless metric there. The first commercial processor sold with a floating point unit integrated was the 486 in 1989. Some rough, unsourced numbers: 1984 - Cray X-MP (expensive!) 800 MFLOPS 1989 - Intel 486 @ 33 MHz 3 1993 - Pentium @ 60 MHz 10 1997 - Pentium II @ 233 MHz 200 2000 - Pentium III @ 1000 MHz 2000 2004 - Pentium 4 @ 2800 MHz 5650…

even if it's 15000 times slower than my 2014 laptop (which it isn't): the ECDH operation still takes under a second and that's the expensive operation (done once per connection)

[deleted]

Re: Ssheven: A modern SSH client for Mac OS 7-9

#92

Post by kalleboo »

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #45
Lammy wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is true for AFP over AppleTalk, yes. Netatalk3 only supports AFP over TCP, but that's fine as far back as System 7 using AppleShare Workstation with MacTCP. System 7.6 and later can use AppleShare Client 3.8.8 with OpenTransport: https://web.archive.org/web/20110418060150/https://support.a...

It's not the protocols that are entirely the problem. It's the authentication mechanisms that also create limitations. I had zero luck getting my 6.0.8 thru 8.6 installs to connect to Netatalk hosts on either my FreeNAS box or my Ubuntu 20.10 workstation until I manually built and installed the old 2.x tree.

FWIW I've had no trouble connecting to the built-in install of netatalk 3.1.8 on my Synology NAS from MacOS 8.1. I can't remember if I had to tweak the config or not.

Re: Ssheven: A modern SSH client for Mac OS 7-9

#93

Post by tomc1985 »

userbinator wrote: post #47

i believe that before OSX, the OS itself had no terminal/shell/command prompt, and I suspect Macs were very rarely used for development back then; it was only with Unix-based OSX that it became hugely popular.

There was some kind of command prompt you could bring up with some really obscure combination of keypresses. I remember encountering it on System 7 and MacOS 8. I never did figure out what could be done with it

Re: Ssheven: A modern SSH client for Mac OS 7-9

#94

Post by retrac »

blibble wrote: post #67
retrac wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you mention EC, it uses floating point. Good ol' FLOPS is not a wholly useless metric there. The first commercial processor sold with a floating point unit integrated was the 486 in 1989. Some rough, unsourced numbers: 1984 - Cray X-MP (expensive!) 800 MFLOPS 1989 - Intel 486 @ 33 MHz 3 1993 - Pentium @ 60 MHz 10 1997 - Pentium II @ 233 MHz 200 2000 - Pentium III @ 1000 MHz 2000 2004 - Pentium 4 @ 2800 MHz 5650…

even if it's 15000 times slower than my 2014 laptop (which it isn't): the ECDH operation still takes under a second and that's the expensive operation (done once per connection)

I am making the same mistake that the other poster did, in assuming too much background familiarity. Those are 90s chips. This software runs on machines from the late 1980s. The trend scales further back as it does forward. Five years is always a long time in computer performance.

The 486, the slowest chip on my list blasts the early Macs (which this software runs on) out of the water by 100x. I went and researched it and the the 68882 FPU at 25 MHz is about 0.25 MFLOPS: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/motorola/68k-chips-faq/

Stunning, but that is the difference between 1985 and 1989 technology.

Re: Ssheven: A modern SSH client for Mac OS 7-9

#95

Post by blibble »

retrac wrote: post #94
blibble wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

even if it's 15000 times slower than my 2014 laptop (which it isn't): the ECDH operation still takes under a second and that's the expensive operation (done once per connection)

I am making the same mistake that the other poster did, in assuming too much background familiarity. Those are 90s chips. This software runs on machines from the late 1980s. The trend scales further back as it does forward. Five years is always a long time in computer performance. The 486, the slowest chip on my list blasts the early Macs (which this software runs on) out of the water by 100x. I went and researched i…

> I am making the same mistake that the other poster did, in assuming too much background familiarity. Those are 90s chips. This software runs on machines from the late 1980s. The trend scales further back as it does forward.

my point was on interactive use (i.e. using AES or ChaCha)

you are the one that diverted the topic towards RSA-4096 (which no-one uses), moving the goalposts (twice)

(and yes, I saw the deleted post)

Re: Ssheven: A modern SSH client for Mac OS 7-9

#96

Post by kalleboo »

blibble wrote: post #43
_xy8h wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TLDR: You're not using era appropriate examples. I told you to get off my lawn.

I did exactly what you told me to I suggest reading up on how the SSH protocol works

There are people in this thread with actual experience and actual bench times using these protocols on machines of that period

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28022299

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28023337

Re: Ssheven: A modern SSH client for Mac OS 7-9

#97

Post by retrac »

blibble wrote: post #95
retrac wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am making the same mistake that the other poster did, in assuming too much background familiarity. Those are 90s chips. This software runs on machines from the late 1980s. The trend scales further back as it does forward. Five years is always a long time in computer performance. The 486, the slowest chip on my list blasts the early Macs (which this software runs on) out of the water by 100x. I went and researched i…

> I am making the same mistake that the other poster did, in assuming too much background familiarity. Those are 90s chips. This software runs on machines from the late 1980s. The trend scales further back as it does forward. my point was on interactive use (i.e. using AES or ChaCha) you are the one that diverted the topic towards RSA-4096 (which no-one uses), moving the goalposts (twice) (and yes, I saw the deleted…

Yep. AES will run fine on any of these machines. These machines are in practice still sort of usable with SSH, with some patience for login depending on protocol.

I deleted the post because I was a bit too aggressive, but apparently the damage was done. I apologize for lecturing you like a prat.

Re: Ssheven: A modern SSH client for Mac OS 7-9

#98

Post by cy384 »

fzzzy wrote: post #85
cy384 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks, I had fun making it! there's full design for a box and a floppy label that I've made for the upcoming 1.0 release

Are you going to do an actual release on floppy? You should. I will buy it.

yes, I think I'm going to make a dozen or so copies, just to make it feel real

Re: Ssheven: A modern SSH client for Mac OS 7-9

#99

Post by kalleboo »

tomc1985 wrote: post #93
userbinator wrote: post #47

i believe that before OSX, the OS itself had no terminal/shell/command prompt, and I suspect Macs were very rarely used for development back then; it was only with Unix-based OSX that it became hugely popular.

There was some kind of command prompt you could bring up with some really obscure combination of keypresses. I remember encountering it on System 7 and MacOS 8. I never did figure out what could be done with it

You're thinking of the debugger - the default Microbug that was built-in was pretty much only useful for printing or writing memory (or typing G FINDER into it, causing the front app to crash and bringing you back to the Finder if the app was hung).

Macsbug[0] which was an optional install was much more feature-rich, but it was still just a debugger and not actually a command line environment.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacsBug

Re: Ssheven: A modern SSH client for Mac OS 7-9

#100

Post by kalleboo »

Lammy wrote: post #55
StevePerkins wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who WAS Apple's customer base during the classic MacOS era? I remember Apple II's dominating when I was in school back in the 1980's. Then in the 1990's when I was in college, all I remember seeing anywhere were PC's. DOS and then Windows for the masses, and this new thing called Slackware Linux for many of us in the CS department. In the 2000's I started hearing about Macs, but only for creative domains like Photosh…

Desktop publishing, especially after the release of the LaserWriter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaserWriter It used to be really hard to get printer output to look the same on the page as what you saw on the screen, and the small details matter when people are laying out a complicated magazine (or whatever) page and need text to flow around images and other design elements. There was a whole Adobe-vs-everyone batt…

For publishing, color management was also a huge thing - at the time Apple's ColorSync [1993] was vital to getting your display, local proof printer, and the printing press all color calibrated together. Adobe developed a Windows version but it was never as well-integrated/supported.
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