[1] http://www.enviromission.com.au/EVM/Company/ShowPage.aspx/PD...
Twice the height of the Empire State - massive solar tower for AZ
31–40 of 132 posts
Re: Twice the height of the Empire State - massive solar tower for AZ
#32The Arizona tower will be a staggering 800 metres or so tall - just 30 meters shorter than the colossal Burj Khalifa in Dubai, the world's tallest man-made structure. Is there any reason why this can't be constructed to be 831 meters tall to edge out the Burj Dubai?
Re: Twice the height of the Empire State - massive solar tower for AZ
#33Really? Very cool idea, but some of the claims sound downright ridiculous. First, the zero maintenance claim that is touted at least 3 times by the article seems suspicious. You can't really leave anything out in the desert sun and not have to maintain or replace it. Sun will disintegrate a lot of material, not to mention wind and sand. Anybody have any info or insight into what material they are using to create the…
The plant will be limited by how much heat can be put into the air inside the 'greenhouse' and overall it will be interesting to see how the feed in replacement cool air without creating dust storms and sucking up birds and what not. I don't suppose someone with Mathematica can build up the spreadsheet using the perfect gas law and the air convection to see if their claims are close. 200MW is 200 sq kilometers of surface area at a nominal solar insolation of 1KW/meter but with an efficency of 10 - 15% and an actual insolation in AZ nearer 800W/m2 that is 1.6M sq kilometers of surface area for 15% conversion rate.
I'm wondering if they have the math they did posted somewhere.
Re: Twice the height of the Empire State - massive solar tower for AZ
#34Since this seems to work on temperature differentials, could you run it up the side of a mountain? Seems you could get height differences of 5-7k feet in a lot of places with that approach...
unless you had a perfectly vertical mountain your tower would end up being longer and costing more. if you did have a perfectly vertical mountain it would still be somewhat difficult to build on the side of a cliff. I suppose you'd need a mountain in the desert as well.
Re: Twice the height of the Empire State - massive solar tower for AZ
#35Really? Very cool idea, but some of the claims sound downright ridiculous. First, the zero maintenance claim that is touted at least 3 times by the article seems suspicious. You can't really leave anything out in the desert sun and not have to maintain or replace it. Sun will disintegrate a lot of material, not to mention wind and sand. Anybody have any info or insight into what material they are using to create the…
Desert environments are extremely good at preserving things, particularly technological devices. http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Mojave,+CA&hl=en&ll=35... The above link shows an aircraft storage facility in Mojave, California. There are a number of such facilities in the US, and many more worldwide. It was discovered some decades ago that you can leave a plane in the desert for years at a time, and when you come back…
In any case, desert is great for preserving stuff in terms of low humidity (ie things don't rot). Not so good for preserving stuff in terms of them getting sand blasted. Especially in AZ where winds routinely hit 100mph+ during gusts and 60mph during windstorms. Not to mention the haboobs.
Also, the prototype of this tower in Spain figured out that the plastics they were using were "not durable enough". I would imagine that means they disintegrated? I'm wondering what they're planning on building this thing out of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower#First_Proto...
Re: Twice the height of the Empire State - massive solar tower for AZ
#36Re: Twice the height of the Empire State - massive solar tower for AZ
#37Re: Twice the height of the Empire State - massive solar tower for AZ
#38The Arizona tower will be a staggering 800 metres or so tall - just 30 meters shorter than the colossal Burj Khalifa in Dubai, the world's tallest man-made structure. Is there any reason why this can't be constructed to be 831 meters tall to edge out the Burj Dubai?
I think that Burj Khalifa (formerly known as Burj Dubai) should be the tallest for economic reasons. The Arizona tower is simply infrastructure, so its goals are to produce the most energy for the least cost. Adding 31 meters may upset the cost/benefit ratio. Dubai, on the other hand, is a tourist destination, and having the tallest building in the world is good marketing.
Re: Twice the height of the Empire State - massive solar tower for AZ
#39The article insists on the plant's low maintenance costs, so this may be a stupid question, but won't the greenhouse* have to be washed regularly of dust? I imagine the accumulation of detritus would significantly impact power production. Edit: I previously had written mirrors. The concept art looked misleadingly shiny.
Re: Twice the height of the Empire State - massive solar tower for AZ
#40First, let's get the terminology right. This plant has a capacity of 200 MW. That does not mean that it produces 200 MWh. The formula for converting MW into (annual) MWh is the following:
MWh = MWx365x24xCF
In the above formula, CF is the capacity factor. Capacity factor is basically the amount of energy that a plant is actually able to produce over the course of a year divided by the total capacity of the plant. Here are some common capacity factors for various industries (taken from a private document, so no sources but this stuff is easy enough to google):
* Coal - 65-95%
* Natural Gas - 35-65%
* Hydro - 25-65%
* Solar - 20-35%
* Wind - 20-35%
* Nuclear - 80%+
Capacity factors are never 100% for various reasons:
* Plants may need to be taken offline for refueling, maintenance, or inspection
* For renewables, the wind isn't always going at full speed and the sun isn't always shining
* A whole bunch of other things that I am too tired to list (read the references below, they have some more in them)
Now, let's look at this new project, and one of the claims made in this article.
According to the article, this plant will be able to provide power for 150,000 homes. According to the EIA, the average household annual energy usage is 10,896 KWh. Given this information and using a more generous solar capacity factor (35%):
Number of Homes Powered = (200x365x24x.35) / 10.896 = 56,278 homes
Hmm, well that's just a bit less than what the article claimed, so they must be assuming a really amazing capacity factor for this estimate. Let's solve the below for cf and see what we get....
(200x365x24xcf)/10.896=150000
cf = approx. 93%
Look, I'm all for scientific advancement and alternative energy, but can we try to be more sensible than this? This is a highly improbable capacity factor.
Documents available from Enviro Mission says that the simulated capacity factor will be more like 50%. When we plug that number into the equation we get about 80,397 homes, which is pretty sensible. However, we have to remember that these are only simulated numbers. There are no similar projects currently available that can be compared to this one, so the actual capacity factor may be either more or less.
Note: Please keep in mind that efficiency is a totally different concept from capacity factor. Efficiency is typically used to describe how well a plant transfers from its energy source into electricity^. The capacity of a plant is a number that already incorporates the plant's efficiency. The capacity factor is simply a measure of how much of that capacity is actually used on an annual basis on average.
^ I am not an electrical engineer. I am an economist, that is the best definition I can come up with.
Disclaimer: I am incredibly tired right now, so if any errors appear in the above posting please send me some coffee so that I can correct them before falling asleep.
References:
+ http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97&t=3
+ http://www.solarpaces.org/CSP_Technology/docs/solar_tower.pd...
+ http://www.enviromission.com.au/IRM/Company/ShowPage.aspx?CP...
Edit: Formatting was all messed up the first time. Forgot to include some additional information. Added clarification on efficiency.