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Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

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Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#481

Post by dangrossman »

simondotau wrote: post #454
dangrossman wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quote is from further up this thread we're in: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28002731 It's verbatim from Elon Musk on Autonomy Day 2019, per this article: https://www.engadget.com/2019-04-22-tesla-elon-musk-self-dri... This is the same event where he promised a million Tesla robotaxis on the road by 2020.

> It's verbatim from Elon Musk on Autonomy Day 2019 No, that was NOT a verbatim quote. Here is the exact quote with me adding emphasis on the critical (but oft omitted) qualifier: "All Teslas being produced right now have this computer. We switched over from the Nvidia solution for S and X about a month ago, and we switched over the Model 3 about ten days ago. All cars being produced have the all the hardware necessa…

The additional context around the same quote doesn't change anything as far as I can tell. They said the exact same thing about their previous computer systems, then just 1-2 years later would replace those computer systems because they were in fact not capable enough for self-driving. There's still no self-driving robotaxis on HW3 over two years later, when they promised it would exist in 2020.

Same thing with the robotaxi quotes. Elon was very clear on autonomy day and the days surrounding it. The promise was not shorthand for "vehicles capable of being a robotaxi", it was Tesla vehicles, and I quote again, "operating robotaxis next year with no one in them", and "I feel very confident predicting that there will be autonomous robotaxis from Tesla next year — not in all jurisdictions because we won’t have regulatory approval everywhere.". You don't need regulatory approval for hardware alone.

In another investor presentation Elon Musk made in 2019, per a reporter covering it, they were promising the Tesla Network to allow Tesla owners to send their functioning robotaxis out to pick people up for money would launch in 2020.

> Starting next year, owners will be able to flip a switch inside the Tesla app, and send out their car to pick up and drop off passengers autonomously, earning an estimated 65 cents per mile in fares. By Tesla’s estimates, owners might be able to earn $30,000 in gross revenue from their cars per year, or more than $300,000 in revenue over the 11-year lifespan of their car.

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#482

Post by jdminhbg »

belter wrote: post #378
jdminhbg wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure creating a multibillion dollar vaporware fraud shell company and being a dick on Twitter are comparable sins.

Lets see some of the quotes and think if we could get away with it... Aug 7, 2018 "Am considering taking Tesla private at $420. Funding secured." Elon Musk Aug 7, 2018 "Shareholders could either to sell at 420 or hold shares & go private" After paying 20 million dollar fine referring to the Securities and Exchange Commission tweets: "Just want to that the Shortseller Enrichment Commission is doing incredible work," "…

The SEC tweets are of course much easier for us to get away with. The only reason they’re of any interest at all is that Elon is rich and powerful.

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#484

Post by Dylan16807 »

itsoktocry wrote: post #468
Dylan16807 wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can get range with enough batteries. So at most the price is wrong. That's nothing compared to offering a completely fake product.

> That's nothing compared to offering a completely fake product. I cannot wrap my head around this mindset. So the truck doesn't exist in any manner in which they claim, be it speed, hauling capacity, range or price. But what they claim also isn't "fake"? Let me spell it out, again: Tesla has raised money off of technology for which there's is no evidence they can or will ever achieve. FSD, solar shingles, the Semi's…

> So the truck doesn't exist in any manner in which they claim, be it speed, hauling capacity, range or price. But what they claim also isn't "fake"?

Where did all those come from? You just said range and price before, and range is easy to fix.

And if a product costs more than expected to build, it still exists.

> shareholders/astroturfers

Shove off.

> solar shingles

They installed a couple dozen roofs, didn't they? Based on my existing knowledge I'd call it garbage but not fake. How long was this demo before those installations, and did any of the parts work?

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#485

Post by ren_engineer »

sixQuarks wrote: post #480
ren_engineer wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Musk is pretty much the dream of what every nerd wants to become. There's a lot of jaded people on HN who think they are just as smart/talented as Musk but don't have anywhere near the success. They deal with the cognitive dissonance by calling him a fraud/scammer or wanting to see him fail. Fanboys of Musk aren't much better, Musk just seems to attract extremists on either side of the aisle who either love him or ha…

I don’t understand why you say musk fans aren’t any better. If you’re going to be a fan of someone, why not someone who is transitioning the world to sustainable energy and trying to make humanity a multi-planetary species?

there's a difference between a fan and a fan boy who worships everything he does.

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#486

Post by cma »

onethought wrote: post #462
cma wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, battery solar goes together, but why did they need to specifically buy his conflict of interest failing one instead of another solar company? Because he had leveraged investments in it and even mixed SpaceX into it having them use NASA money to buy SolarCity bonds. Crazy self-dealing and ultimately fraud with the fake shingle demo and claims.

Pretty sure Solar is a big part of energy generation in Space related stuff. So I can obviously see the self dealing side… but there is also an equally “it just made sense” side. Do billionaires need to self enrich with crazy side deals?

Solar city had nothing to do with space solar, and if they did bonds don't give access to the tech anyway. It was residential (contracted?) install and financialization of the deal and payback terms.

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#487

Post by fragmede »

bississippi wrote: post #301

Most Silicon Valley “CRUD” startups have fraud baked in. It’s just whose holding the bag in the end that matters. Sometimes it’s the VC funds early in the stage, sometimes it’s the late stage investors ala WeWork SoftBank and usually it’s the retail bag holders post IPO.

That's a uselessly wide brush because it's all CRUD. Different companies specialize in different areas, carving out their own, highly profitable niche. Customized hardware for doing CRUD on (Apple, Juniper, Cisco), specialized software for high-performance CRUD (Oracle), selling access to systems for doing CRUD on (AWS/Azure/GCP), giving away access to custom CRUD software for free, and selling advertisement in the Read step (Facebook, Google Search), charging fees for use of custom CRUD software (AirBnB). Hell, money itself is just CRUD in various databases (bank/visa/the fed/blockchain/etc) and various companies make a killing off that (Venmo/PayPal/Square).

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#488

Post by nickik »

heavyset_go wrote: post #375
nickik wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it doesn't. Stop claiming this nonsense. It is totally irrelevant for Tesla financials.

Tesla's Q1 operating profit of $594M was slightly less than the sum of their $101M Bitcoin profit and the $518M regulatory credits they received.

And in Q2 the lost $24M on Bitcoin. They got $300somethingM in credits. So what? Who the fuck cares.

And the regulatory credit thing is so fucking played out that people who still bring it up can only be described as haters.

Are you seriously unable to look at a long term trend? Can you seriously not see how Bitcoin is totally irrelevant in their long term story?

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#489

Post by heavyset_go »

cycrutchfield wrote: post #388
heavyset_go wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla's Q1 operating profit of $594M was slightly less than the sum of their $101M Bitcoin profit and the $518M regulatory credits they received.

My goodness, the regulatory credits meme once again. How are those short shorts feeling by the way?

Ah, yes, the meme that is Tesla's own quarterly financial report.

Re: Grand jury indicts Trevor Milton, Nikola founder, on three counts of fraud

#490

Post by hogFeast »

CPLX wrote: post #390
hogFeast wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you familiar with Mogdilani-Miller? Being able to pay off debt does not increase the value of equity. The capital structure has changed but that makes no difference for the actual value of the business (which is determined by cash flows). And, ofc, it is massively value-dilutive in practice for shareholders. Debt is extremely cheap and equity is expensive. And, in this case, massive amounts of value have been des…

It’s not that deep. The basic premise I’m putting forward, which is that in general investing in an company might have the potential to help that company succeed, is utterly trivial and obvious. Also trivial and obvious is that fact that an excessive debt burden can cripple and kill a company that might have otherwise succeeded. There is indeed subtlety to this, needless to say. But basic observation is essentially u…

Correct. Lots of people bought into the stock at a valuation in excess of fundamental value, bankers saw an opportunity, equity holders got rinsed, and debt holders got paid in full immediately on a junk credit.
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