Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Amazon Rainforest Is Fast Approaching a Point of No Return in Brazil

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 42 posts

Re: The Amazon Rainforest Is Fast Approaching a Point of No Return in Brazil

#31

Post by Proven »

blastonico wrote: post #7
Dumblydorr wrote: post #2

This is so short-sighted and ignorant, it's hard to even read about. Brazilians should cherish their rainforest, legacy of millions of years of evolution, with wondrous biodiversity and an amazing carbon sink the planet desperately needs. Instead, they're chopping and burning this vital carbon store to make room for beef production. This is so short sighted it's painful. We know beef has to be massively ramped down,…

Assuming you're not a short-sighted person, how would a poor country like Brazil protect, without make any money out of it, an area bigger than Europe? It's interesting how rich countries made their money by exploiting our (and other poor countries) natural resources, but now they realized it's bad. The solutions proposed by Macron and Biden is ridiculous, outrageous. But it's not surprising, considering Europe/US in…

> Assuming you're not a short-sighted person, how would a poor country like Brazil protect, without make any money out of it, an area bigger than Europe?

Auction it off (sell it) to private individuals.

No private owner would willingly destroy what they paid for.

It doesn't take a genius to know how much wood can be cut every year without destroying the value of your property.

But you don't need a lot of skill or smarts to destroy what's not yours, or accept a bribe to allow plunder of government property.

Re: The Amazon Rainforest Is Fast Approaching a Point of No Return in Brazil

#32

Post by missedthecue »

MandieD wrote: post #10

What we in the EU actually can do: campaign for a ban on imports of Brazilian beef as long as they’re allowing the destruction of their rainforests. The cheaper beer I see at the discount grocery stores is often from Brazil, so this isn’t merely symbolic.

I think Brazil sends much of their agricultural exports to Asia.

Re: The Amazon Rainforest Is Fast Approaching a Point of No Return in Brazil

#33

Post by 908B64B197 »

MandieD wrote: post #10

What we in the EU actually can do: campaign for a ban on imports of Brazilian beef as long as they’re allowing the destruction of their rainforests. The cheaper beer I see at the discount grocery stores is often from Brazil, so this isn’t merely symbolic.

That would actually help.

Re: The Amazon Rainforest Is Fast Approaching a Point of No Return in Brazil

#34

Post by Andy_G11 »

The world does not act in accordance with "society's" proclaimed values - it acts according to the sum of individual actual values.

On this basis, Bolsanaro is right: we can talk up a storm about how Brazil needs to protect the Amazon, but when push comes to shove those poor people in Brazil are going to have to tough it out by themselves.

And of course the rest of the world is not going to funnel funds to Brazil to protect the rainforest, because it will be on a hiding to nothing, forking out cash to a neverending stream of poor folk with increasingly outrageous demands.

Real change in many of the things we lament in the world at the moment would require a mindset shift in people en masse - either that or a tyrannical top-down command structure. I would be curious to know which of the two is more likely.

Re: The Amazon Rainforest Is Fast Approaching a Point of No Return in Brazil

#35

Post by namelessUser »

moralestapia wrote: post #8
renarl wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it’s so important for the whole planet, why is no one paying Brazilians to keep the rainforests intact?

Norway (and others) did that for a while and they kind of got scammed. See, https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-environment-norway...

Norway, the biggest donor by far, has paid $1.2 bn over 10 years. In comparison, Brazil exported $35.2 bn of soybean products in 2020 alone. Seems like reneging on the deal is better from an economic perspective.

The big issue is that developed countries need to pay far more money to stop other countries' deforestation, but it won't happen because the payments will affect QoL of those living in developed countries and humans are inherently selfish.

Re: The Amazon Rainforest Is Fast Approaching a Point of No Return in Brazil

#36

Post by thehappypm »

datavirtue wrote: post #17

If you ever get outside you will find that trees not only clean the air but they cool the earth tremendously. On a 90°F (and humid as hell) day here in Ohio I can literally ride my bike through a continuous tunnel of trees that block the sun light from our extensive trail here in Cincinnati. Without those trees the trail would be unusable. This is not hyperbole. Earth getting hot? Plant trees.

This is like the "weather == climate" claim that climate change deniers make a lot. It's cold out! Global warming is a hoax! It's shady under a tree! Global warming solved!

Re: The Amazon Rainforest Is Fast Approaching a Point of No Return in Brazil

#37

Post by culopatin »

ggpsv wrote: post #9
Dumblydorr wrote: post #2

This is so short-sighted and ignorant, it's hard to even read about. Brazilians should cherish their rainforest, legacy of millions of years of evolution, with wondrous biodiversity and an amazing carbon sink the planet desperately needs. Instead, they're chopping and burning this vital carbon store to make room for beef production. This is so short sighted it's painful. We know beef has to be massively ramped down,…

While I agree that losing the Amazon, and all of its biological and human diversity is a catastrophe, I don't agree with this sort of finger pointing. The same argument can be said of most, if not all, of the western countries whose primary ecosystems have gone extinct by mostly the same reasons. How come then that when the developing nations in the global south do so, they're short-sighted and ignorant? Yes, Brazil…

It’s a different context. What was done in the western countries many years ago is not right, but the difference is that we now know what impacts that had. Doing that in 2021 when we know how bad it is deserves finger pointing. I will continue the finger pointing if that can raise awareness, I don’t care if some other short sighted group of people did it before, that wrong doesn’t make it right.

In regards of the second half of your post, if Brazil cared about their environment and long term ecological stability, they would be smarter than this.

Do you not finger point at the drug cartels because “someone is buying it”?

Re: The Amazon Rainforest Is Fast Approaching a Point of No Return in Brazil

#38

Post by stanmancan »

bamboozled wrote: post #15
stanmancan wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hard problem here is that you’re right; but who are we to tell them they can’t do the same things that North America and Europe did to survive and prosper? We have released ungodly amounts of green house gasses and clear cut millions and millions of acres to build our cities and factories. Who are we to finger point any day “yeah we did it and life is great but you can’t because we beat you to the punch and did i…

I guess we know more about ecology and climate change in 2021 than in the 1600s? That's why.

That doesn't change the fact that we have to be able to offer them a better solution other than "you're forever stuck in poverty because we don't want you to use your natural resources while we live a lavish life after destroying all of ours".

Don't get me wrong; I do not under any circumstance support what's going on there. But it's also not fair for whole countries to be stuck in poverty because they're slow to the game.

Why not have first world countries adopt portions of the rain forest? Pay the Brazilian government annual fee's for them to protect the rain forest from being clear cut. The government can use the money collected to pay people who would normally be farming the land to do something else. There's a lot of trust that the Brazilian government spends the resources as intended; but that's another problem.

TLDR; telling them they can't do it from our ivory tower is not going to work so if that's the plan then we better be offering them alternative income sources that don't require clear cutting.

Re: The Amazon Rainforest Is Fast Approaching a Point of No Return in Brazil

#39

Post by bamboozled »

stanmancan wrote: post #38
bamboozled wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess we know more about ecology and climate change in 2021 than in the 1600s? That's why.

That doesn't change the fact that we have to be able to offer them a better solution other than "you're forever stuck in poverty because we don't want you to use your natural resources while we live a lavish life after destroying all of ours". Don't get me wrong; I do not under any circumstance support what's going on there. But it's also not fair for whole countries to be stuck in poverty because they're slow to the…

I'm not saying they need to be stuck in poverty, I'm saying the Government of Brazil, the UN etc, should stop this from happening because we know of the dire consequences of it.

If Brazil requires financial assistance, so be it. They shouldn't be allowed to destroy the Amazon rain forest because stupid people did it back in the gold rush.

Re: The Amazon Rainforest Is Fast Approaching a Point of No Return in Brazil

#40

Post by ggpsv »

culopatin wrote: post #37
ggpsv wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that losing the Amazon, and all of its biological and human diversity is a catastrophe, I don't agree with this sort of finger pointing. The same argument can be said of most, if not all, of the western countries whose primary ecosystems have gone extinct by mostly the same reasons. How come then that when the developing nations in the global south do so, they're short-sighted and ignorant? Yes, Brazil…

It’s a different context. What was done in the western countries many years ago is not right, but the difference is that we now know what impacts that had. Doing that in 2021 when we know how bad it is deserves finger pointing. I will continue the finger pointing if that can raise awareness, I don’t care if some other short sighted group of people did it before, that wrong doesn’t make it right. In regards of the sec…

I don't disagree with you. What I'm trying to say is that there are forcing functions which make it so Brazil continues to let this pass, many of which are entrenched in the history of Brazil. Calling them stupid or ignorant is to miss the forest for the trees, and ignores the fact that these activities were propelled by foreign institutions/corporations as well. To think this is Brazil's own doing is to disregard the effects of capitalism and globalization in the last couple of decades. Sure, Brazil could be "smarter" than this and act in its own interest but that hasn't bode well for most latinamerican countries in the last half century.

For Brazil to "care" the dollar value of keeping the forest untouched needs to be greater _for everyone involved_ than that of using it to graze cattle or cultivate soy. The dollar value is certainly greater all things considered (past, present, and future) but that value is less tangible to land owners and ultimately the country itself. You have to understand the socioeconomic and political context leading to these conditions.

Same goes for Indonesia and Borneo cutting down their forest for palm oil.

Post reply on HN