Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices • Hacker News Board

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#551

Post by zajio1am » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

Pyramus wrote: post #275

Pozzuh wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is anecdotal. There are people getting infected (and even sick) whilst being vaccinated as well. The vast majority of people however, are not.

You are correct, but that doesn't mean it's anecdotal. At this point we don't know whether natural immunity is 'better' than vaccine induced immunity, and it could go either way. There are many disease (including viral ones!) for which the vaccines are orders of magnitude more effective [1]. The simple reason being that the vaccines have the spike protein as a marker - the part of the virus that we expect is least li…

> You are correct, but that doesn't mean it's anecdotal. At this point we don't know whether natural immunity is 'better' than vaccine induced immunity, and it could go either way.

There is this study: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01377-8 saying that natural immunity seems to be slightly worse than Pfizer or Moderna vaccine, but better than AstraZeneca or Johnson vaccine.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#552

Post by Fine-Cut4983 » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

ticviking wrote: post #112

Animats wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lower socioeconomic communities have poorer access to vaccinations Early on, maybe. Not now. Find the poorest zip code in Alabama, 35203, which is in Birmingham. Look it up in Vaccines.gov. Nearest vaccination locations: Publix Supermarket, 0.79 miles, in stock. UAB Hospital, 1.03 miles, in stock. Walgreens, 1.62 miles. CVS, 1.65 and 1.74 miles. Legion Field vaccination clinic, 1.99 miles. There are a dozen more with…

What do poor folks in Alabama have a strong cultural memory of? The Tuskegee airmen experiments. Skepticism based on actual historical injustice isn’t the same thing as Karen’s who think that vaccines cause autism, and will require totally different solutions

The US government has historically conducted quite a bit of experimentation on broad swaths of the population [1], not just your favored marginalized groups. So it sounds like "Karen" is perfectly justified in her skepticism.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentatio...

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#553

Post by Fine-Cut4983 » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

f6v wrote: post #494

Fine-Cut4983 wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide a reference to a single viral vector vaccine with widespread usage prior to this year?

I’m talking about viral vector as a delivery method. And you’re talking about testing a COVID-19 vaccine, right? Of course there’s none. But there’s no way to do a long-term testing of a particular COVID-19 vaccine. By the time you finish the study it’s going to be too late. So if someone says “But a vaccine hasn’t been studied long enough!” they just propose to not vaccinate at all and rely on lockdowns/post-illness…

I'm not talking about just COVID-19 vaccines, I am talking about any vaccine that uses viral vector as a delivery method.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#554

Post by bananabiscuit » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

CyberDildonics wrote: post #500

bananabiscuit wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Let’s not ignore that: different people will have different risk/benefit profiles; that these vaccines are still in fact experimental; that there is no reproductive toxicity report for these vaccines; that there is data showing that the lipid nanoparticles from this vaccine accumulate in the ovaries; the rushed COVID vaccines are responsible for more all-cause deaths than the last 30 years of vaccines combine…

What you are saying here is conspiracy theory nonsense unless you can source substantial evidence or even explain how any of this could be true. What would not be experimental to you? There have been 4 billion doses given out. How many more billions of doses do you need before you start saying things that have evidence instead of things that do not? https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations?country=OWID_W...

Let me address all of these

different people will have different risk/benefit profiles: should be self evident

that these vaccines are still in fact experimental: all current COVID vaccines are still being distributed under a EUA.

that there is no reproductive toxicity report for these vaccines: I checked on the status of this again, so far this study [1] that will be published next month seems to be all we have. Note that the study is on only 44 subjects, all of them rats. Additionally, please try going to the VAERS database [2] and do a query for “Spontaneous abortion” grouped by year, notice that out of the last 22 years, 48% of such events occurred in 2021 (which we are only about half through). Surely this needs some sort of follow up.

there is data showing that the lipid nanoparticles from this vaccine accumulate in the ovaries: [3], this is in rats, this should be followed up, especially when taken with the context VAERS data above, but the only follow ups I can find are hot takes from non-experts.

the rushed COVID vaccines are responsible for more all-cause deaths than the last 30 years of vaccines combined: [2] again, you can build the appropriate query yourself. I can’t draw a definitive conclusion here, but it’s rather scary that this is being mostly ignored except by right-wing media who are quick to draw their own possibly wrong from-the-hip conclusions.

that people with natural immunity have no evidence based reason to take these vaccines: here’s what The WHO has to say about it [4]. In general it seems when we are about X months past feb 2020, there is evidence that natural immunity works for about X minus 2 months. Which is to be expected as we are collecting data in real time. However the public is being constantly misdirected about this. The party line is that “long term immunity from natural infections is uncertain, but from vaccinations is certain” which cannot be a possible real conclusion because this virus has only been around for less than 2 years, and the vaccines for about half that time. If anything, we obviously know more about the long term immunity from natural infection, than the vaccine. And that WHO report sheepishly admits as much.

that mass vaccination during pandemics create evolutionary pressure for immune escape variants: feel like this should be a no-brainer, but here’s one random article that goes in depth about it [4]

there is now data showing that antibody-dependent enhancement is a real possibility due to these vaccines: there was an NBC report 2 days ago that showed signs that this might be the case, but it got memory-holed [5]. Here’s another symptom of ADE [6]. This (and all the other points) should be talked about, addressed, followed up on. Not condescendingly swept under the rug as conspiracy theories.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8163337/#!po=0....

[2] https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html

[3] https://byrambridle.com/docs/bio-dist.pdf

[4] https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathog...

[5] https://luis46pr.wordpress.com/2021/07/29/usa-today-deletes-...

[6] https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2021/07/26/covid-vaccination...

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#555

Post by exo-pla-net » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 6:09 PM UTC

calsy wrote: post #310

exo-pla-net wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Careful to not cause him too much cognitive dissonance. His brain might explode, splashing his proudly unvaccinated SARS-CoV-2 on everyone.

Who nominated you smartest person in the room, yourself?

I'm still awaiting that nomination, and my cat isn't obliging, but I'm smart enough to smell that I touched a nerve. Are you vaccinated, calsy?

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#556

Post by Marcus9 » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 6:14 PM UTC

Closi wrote: post #537

Marcus9 wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird to pretend this is about "one's medical history" when it's clearly about minimizing risk of harm to others. People need to accept the reality that spreading a disease is causing harm, and that preventing people from causing harm is a core function of the rules of society. Spreading disease is unique- unlike assault or robbery or rape or murder it doesn't require the harmer to intend to cause harm, so many…

> People need to accept the reality that spreading a disease is causing harm, and that preventing people from causing harm is a core function of the rules of society. Mandating vaccines is going a step further - it's forcing people to do an action, which might reduce their chances of causing harm in the future . If the sole goal was to prevent people to cause harm to others, we should prevent people from driving (the…

That's a fair assessment, my initial comment only focused on one half of the balance you're highlighting.

The problem is, you know what I don't want to have put in my body even more than the vaccine? The coronavirus. The fact that it's some anti-vax luddite coughing on my kid and putting the virus in their body that way instead of a nurse administering a shot is just a minor implementation detail.

We've banned leaded gasoline and smoking indoors because we recognize the harm caused to others, even if it's hard to directly pin-point a specific cigarette to a cancer case. We need to pull society into the 21st century and acknowledge that spreading viruses has the same dynamic.

Since we can't effectively hold people liable for the damage they cause (eg, suing or imprisoning the person who negligently spread the disease when someone gets hospitalized or dies) I don't see any practical option other than requiring the vaccine. Maybe the liability model could work- if you went out in public unvaccinated, you're held liable for the medical expenses, missed work or wrongful death of the people you exhaled the virus onto.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#557

Post by Marcus9 » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

off_sounder wrote: post #501

Marcus9 wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird to pretend this is about "one's medical history" when it's clearly about minimizing risk of harm to others. People need to accept the reality that spreading a disease is causing harm, and that preventing people from causing harm is a core function of the rules of society. Spreading disease is unique- unlike assault or robbery or rape or murder it doesn't require the harmer to intend to cause harm, so many…

Your wrong. That's like saying a taxi cab driver who drove a criminal to a place where he committed a murder is partly responsible for the crime. The virus is the thing that's causing harm. You can't blame an individual for being skeptical about a vaccine (that has more voluntarily reports of causing harm than any other vaccine in recent history, btw) that's experimental, and unapproved. Also, the science is in on th…

Hilarious comparison, because it's actually like holding a getaway driver responsible... which is exactly how the law does work.

The taxi cab driver would be relevant in February of 2020 when it was new and unknown. If you're going out in public today unvaccinated, you're knowingly complicit in spreading covid.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#558

Post by bananabiscuit » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 6:49 PM UTC

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #548

off_sounder wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your wrong. That's like saying a taxi cab driver who drove a criminal to a place where he committed a murder is partly responsible for the crime. The virus is the thing that's causing harm. You can't blame an individual for being skeptical about a vaccine (that has more voluntarily reports of causing harm than any other vaccine in recent history, btw) that's experimental, and unapproved. Also, the science is in on th…

> more voluntarily reports of causing harm than any other vaccine in recent history, btw Given the amount of doses administered, we would expect this, right? Or are you making the claim that the proportions are higher?

According to https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/hrsa/vaccine-compen... from 2006-2019 alone, about 4 billion vaccines were administered in the US. Compared to something like 200 million COVID vaccinations so far.

Yet, if you look at the VAERS data, 2021 had more all-cause deaths after vaccinations than the previous 20 years combined. Also had more miscarriages after vaccination than the previous 20 years combined.

Keep in mind also we are only a little over half way through 2021.

Run the queries and see for yourself, https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#559

Post by baumy » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 7:00 PM UTC

bananabiscuit wrote: post #554

CyberDildonics wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are saying here is conspiracy theory nonsense unless you can source substantial evidence or even explain how any of this could be true. What would not be experimental to you? There have been 4 billion doses given out. How many more billions of doses do you need before you start saying things that have evidence instead of things that do not? https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations?country=OWID_W...

Let me address all of these different people will have different risk/benefit profiles: should be self evident that these vaccines are still in fact experimental: all current COVID vaccines are still being distributed under a EUA. that there is no reproductive toxicity report for these vaccines: I checked on the status of this again, so far this study [1] that will be published next month seems to be all we have. Not…

A sincere thank you for all of those links, very educational.

It seems to me that the "condescending sweep under the rug" you identify is motivated by the same reasoning that caused Fauci to declare early on that masks don't work - people need to be manipulated into doing the "right thing", and exposing them to information that might make them not do the right thing is bad, therefore that information must be suppressed.

Then, it was "we don't want people hoarding masks that are more urgently needed by healthcare workers, so tell them masks don't work". Now, it's "we need as many people getting vaccinated as possible, so suppress and cast doubt on all information that might make people hesitate". A few decades ago, this likely would have been effective (although arguably morally reprehensible) public health policy. With the internet, not only does that not work anymore but it actually backfires spectacularly, and our government elites haven't come to terms with that.

I find it at least somewhat reassuring that the biggest unknown potential side effect of the vaccine seems to be around female reproductive health, but the demographic by far most at risk from covid is past their reproductive years anyway. The ADE discussion I know nothing about, but look forward to reading; thanks again for the links.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#560

Post by TulliusCicero » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 7:09 PM UTC

xyzzy21 wrote: post #538

native_samples wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, really, better not. The people who are "captured" by this meme, as you rather condescendingly put it, generally don't trust the vaccine safety statistics, have many valid reasons not to do so, and are also well aware of the statistics around how dangerous COVID is or isn't for themselves. It would take great faith to believe that the institutions are providing reliable data right now in an atmosphere of mass hyst…

There is NO SAFETY data because no COVID vaccines have finished clinical trails yet. That's what "Emergency Authorization" means - we give it to people even though it hasn't gone through the human clinical trials that every other drug normally does! Everyone vaccinated is legally and procedurally part of those clinical trials - it says so on the FDA web site. And those trials are not scheduled to be completed until 2…

The hell are you talking about, we have data from the clinical trials that ran last year. Those phases have completed.