Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#211

Post by ipaddr » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 4:01 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #158

delecti wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible in Chrome and Firefox (and I assume other browsers, though can't say for sure) to add search shortcuts for other websites. If I know I want the wikipedia link, rather than searching google for the thing, I type "wp ", and it takes me either directly to the wikipedia page, or to the search results. I think the default is the domain followed by a space, so "wikipedia.org ", but that can be changed.

this has always befuddled me. why use google at all to search a specific site rather than searching on the site directly? why give google the traffic? because lazy/convenience of google being the default page for new browsers and/or google the default search associated with the location bar?

Because search is hard. Most domain sites search titles and descriptions of articles for keywords. Google will index the entire page and be able to provide more and better ordered results.

Or use to. Now the quality and quantity of results forces site owners to implement their own search or use third parties.

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#212

Post by only_as_i_fall » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

jcranberry wrote: post #148

only_as_i_fall wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it not a consequence of deliberate choices made by Google?

People would be doing this no matter what choices Google make because of how universally used it is. What choice do you think Google could make which would avoid that?

They could punish the rankings of review pages using affiliate links.

Clearly the use of these links creates a worse experience for users.

Not sure why you're carrying water for Google but I'm confident in their ability to filter obvious spam from their search results.

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#213

Post by jeffbee » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 4:06 PM UTC

typon wrote: post #111

flenserboy wrote: post #49

Google broke itself over a decade ago when they began giving you results either that their algorithms assumed you wanted or that they wanted you to have , period. Verbatim search hardly produces anything useful anymore, either. Search has been coopted, making the prime thing (past general connectivity) that made the internet so useful now all but worthless.

90% of my searches for stuff like "best bike to buy under $500" go something like: "best bike to buy for under $500 site:reddit.com"

That's "getting a stupid answer" because of the kind of question. The problem is you can't rank bicycles under $500; they are all undifferentiated. The search results on Google for this question strike me as fairly reasonable, given the impossibility of the question and the deluge of affiliate spam they have to index.

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#214

Post by rjsw » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #97

So here's a side-question. The original key idea behind Google's approach to search was page rank : how many, and what kinds, of other sites linked to this one (and potentially, in what context). Does anyone think that this can possibly be at the core of Google's page rank anymore? Most pages don't have any significant number of links any more, and if they do, they are presumably garbage most of the time. Who is out…

I see reviews of best X under $Y that I would have some trust in their conclusions on websites that also do news about the subject area. I don't see why these websites should not be able to use affiliate links.

Some examples: Cycling Weekly for bicycles and AnandTech for computing stuff.

I don't go to their websites via Google search though.

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#215

Post by bo1024 » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

delecti wrote: post #120

makecheck wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep; I can’t believe what used to be bar-none the most useful set of search results will now seemingly scatter results into the list that have zero matches for my search term, as well as some with boldfaced words that I did not even type. And also, for some reason the “zero-click results” stuff really bothers me. I don’t want some crappy AI summary of a Wikipedia page, I want the Wikipedia link first , for example. I…

It's possible in Chrome and Firefox (and I assume other browsers, though can't say for sure) to add search shortcuts for other websites. If I know I want the wikipedia link, rather than searching google for the thing, I type "wp ", and it takes me either directly to the wikipedia page, or to the search results. I think the default is the domain followed by a space, so "wikipedia.org ", but that can be changed.

If you have DuckDuckGo in your browser search bar, then you get their bang functionality automatically, which replicates this. E.g. "bicycle !w" searches wikipedia. Includes !so (stackoverflow), !g (google), !yt (youtube), !a (amazon), !twitter, !reddit, many others.

https://duckduckgo.com/bang

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#216

Post by 8note » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #66

iamben wrote: post #63

We're going to end up going back to community sites. Reddit is obviously the good example here, but you can guarantee if you find a 'racing bike' forum (or whatever), take the time to join up, search, ask - someone with a passion for it will give you a great, well researched list because they love it and take pride from knowing . Exactly the same as when I ask my friend who's passionate about wine for his recommendat…

I want you to be right but the GME and AMC nonsense doesn’t instill a lot of confidence that Reddit isn’t being gamed already by automated accounts. I’ve had my own comment altered a little and regurgitated by a bot before, which was extremely creepy. But you are right that the signal to noise is at least better on Reddit.

The GME nonsense was a guy posting that he bought a lot of options and why.

Then he kept posting updates

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#217

Post by _greim_ » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

Controversial opinion: this is the system working. These spammy affiliate link sites work well enough that Google lists them, people use them, and bicycles get sold. It isn't globally optimal, but it's locally optimal given a culture where online users refuse to pay for content.

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#218

Post by yourad_io » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

padthai wrote: post #136

SerLava wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly on Google and YouTube- nearly the entire search space for "how to pronounce xyz" has been taken over by videos of text to speech recordings that have absolutely no idea how to pronounce anything. There are huge YouTube channels posting this scam content, and they never seem to go away. There are real ones in there too, but there are way more spam words than real ones.

I use Forvo for this, it is great: https://forvo.com/

Seconded! I used Forvo for some Greek words and it had high quality recordings from actual humans with good accents.

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#219

Post by dylan604 » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 4:21 PM UTC

jeffbee wrote: post #210

dylan604 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not necessarily. the assumption part is the key. If I search wild turkey, I would accept listings on the bird or the specific whiskey. I would not accept listings of other brands of whiskey or scotch or other alcohol. I also would not accept listings on birds unless there was direct mention of wild turkey in it. Assuming I was interested in something other than what was requested is where it lost usefulness to me. Ma…

The Google search results for wild turkey seem extremely reasonable to me. Did you try this example before using it?

it's just an example. of course somebody on the internet did the exact thing i was meaning to be an example. kudos

the point of the story is that I'll take "anything related in the slightest to my query for $500" when hitting the Feeling Lucky button. when I hit search, I want specifics to my search term. don't go making 6 degrees of separation results.

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#220

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #209

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that the page rank for http://foo.bar.com/baz.html is more a function of the link score for foorbar.com than the link score for baz.html or its contents?

No, but you do have internal links on your site as well, and they work just like external links, passing on "link juice". If you have a million important links pointing to / and zero external links pointing to /baz.html and you link from / to /baz.html, you'll still see /baz.html hike up the SERPs. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27991322 this submission from today is exactly the same. Expired domains are the bi…

This seems quite contrary to Brin & Page's original explanation of their (first) page rank algorithms, which was boosted as utilizing other people's linkage as the justification for a higher ranking. It also seems ripe (ruined, even!) for being completely weaponized. Another failure of the imagination, maybe.