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Low level is easy (2008)

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Re: Low level is easy (2008)

#31

Post by iamricks »

thrashh wrote: post #26
jensensbutton wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Backends are so much easier to build compared to frontends, and I mean decent and reliable ones. Evidence would suggest otherwise. I can build a decent and reliable frontend with a no code solution. That's not to say frontend is "easy", just that trying to say which is harder is ridiculous. They're different. I personally don't like working on frontends because it feels like getting on a hamster wheel that spins fa…

A backend can just say ‘no’ if it gets a number in a format it doesn’t like. If a user enters a number incorrectly on a frontend, a frontend can’t just say no. It might have to try its best to parse the number, or if it can’t, the error has to be presented in a user friendly way. A frontend can’t just throw an exception and say Bad Request.

Or you just send the input to the backend and have the backend tell the frontend to tell the user "backend said no"

Re: Low level is easy (2008)

#32

Post by andai »

reidjs wrote: post #16
armchairhacker wrote: post #11

This applies so much do gamedev. I’ve tried Unity, Unreal, and Godot. But I’ve never been able to produce anything, because there’s just so much to learn. Rigging, particle systems, AI pathing, etc. And so much weird bugs and workarounds. Unity in particular sometimes seems like it was hacked together, and there’s always multiple ways to do everything (DOTS, UI, animation), the broken “beta” way and the “legacy” way.…

Do you actually finish the games? I’ve tried the DIY game engine approach before, but I never have finished a substantial game before because I get caught up in the weeds.

Beware the eternal enginedev... many a brave soul have fallen to this trap.

Re: Low level is easy (2008)

#33

Post by matheusmoreira »

andai wrote: post #32
reidjs wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you actually finish the games? I’ve tried the DIY game engine approach before, but I never have finished a substantial game before because I get caught up in the weeds.

Beware the eternal enginedev... many a brave soul have fallen to this trap.

Developing the engine is so much more fun though.

Re: Low level is easy (2008)

#34

Post by jensensbutton »

mojuba wrote: post #19
jensensbutton wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Backends are so much easier to build compared to frontends, and I mean decent and reliable ones. Evidence would suggest otherwise. I can build a decent and reliable frontend with a no code solution. That's not to say frontend is "easy", just that trying to say which is harder is ridiculous. They're different. I personally don't like working on frontends because it feels like getting on a hamster wheel that spins fa…

> I can build a decent and reliable frontend with a no code solution Things that can be built that way are not interesting. Of course you can just assemble online stores without writing a single line of code, but that's not exactly programming. We are talking about frontends that have some sort of novelty or at least non-standard flows in them.

The parent made no such distinction. And your comment applies to just as much to backends as frontends. If a backend is "easy" to make reliable then it's probably not very interesting.

Re: Low level is easy (2008)

#35

Post by dllthomas »

armchairhacker wrote: post #11

This applies so much do gamedev. I’ve tried Unity, Unreal, and Godot. But I’ve never been able to produce anything, because there’s just so much to learn. Rigging, particle systems, AI pathing, etc. And so much weird bugs and workarounds. Unity in particular sometimes seems like it was hacked together, and there’s always multiple ways to do everything (DOTS, UI, animation), the broken “beta” way and the “legacy” way.…

> if the engine has a bug, I can fix it at the source

While this is probably going to be easier in something you wrote, note that it's possible in both Godot (F/LOSS) and Unreal (despite being proprietary they give you access to the source for free when you sign up).

Re: Low level is easy (2008)

#36

Post by jensensbutton »

woah wrote: post #13
jensensbutton wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Backends are so much easier to build compared to frontends, and I mean decent and reliable ones. Evidence would suggest otherwise. I can build a decent and reliable frontend with a no code solution. That's not to say frontend is "easy", just that trying to say which is harder is ridiculous. They're different. I personally don't like working on frontends because it feels like getting on a hamster wheel that spins fa…

Seems like you don't know much about building frontends.

Sounds like you don't know much about building backends.

Re: Low level is easy (2008)

#37

Post by bitwize »

andai wrote: post #32
reidjs wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you actually finish the games? I’ve tried the DIY game engine approach before, but I never have finished a substantial game before because I get caught up in the weeds.

Beware the eternal enginedev... many a brave soul have fallen to this trap.

The way out is to focus on the game. Only build up the engine to the point the game needs it to be built. The bulk of your focus should be on game logic, even when you take writing the engine into account.

Granted, I haven't finished my game this way, but the engine isn't really the bottleneck. It's deciding on, and implementing, appropriate behaviors, often for silly, fiddly corner cases.

Re: Low level is easy (2008)

#38

Post by mojuba »

majormajor wrote: post #29
mojuba wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone else has already mentioned in this thread that backends only ever interact with other programs, not humans. This fact alone makes it easier to design, implement and scale. And like I said elsewhere it is in fact so much easier that a backend can be built to be 100% correct and bug free, while for any more or less interesting and useful frontend it is practically impossible to achieve.

That's nonsensical. User input is passed to backends all the time, and results in just as many difficulties there. From SQL injection and other "untrusted input" problems, to dealing with migrating five years worth of user data to a new system because the old backend can't keep up, to trying to keep every piece of data in a consistent state. Look at CAP theorem: it literally says "you can't have a perfect system here…

A lot of the times the part of the backend that renders pages and handles user input can be assumed to be part of the frontend, I'm not talking about those. I meant backend as an API.

I honestly think you've never built a decent sized, non-trivial mobile app for example, and you probably have no idea how tedious and difficult it is to produce something that will be pleasant for the users to deal with.

Re: Low level is easy (2008)

#39

Post by jensensbutton »

majormajor wrote: post #29
mojuba wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone else has already mentioned in this thread that backends only ever interact with other programs, not humans. This fact alone makes it easier to design, implement and scale. And like I said elsewhere it is in fact so much easier that a backend can be built to be 100% correct and bug free, while for any more or less interesting and useful frontend it is practically impossible to achieve.

That's nonsensical. User input is passed to backends all the time, and results in just as many difficulties there. From SQL injection and other "untrusted input" problems, to dealing with migrating five years worth of user data to a new system because the old backend can't keep up, to trying to keep every piece of data in a consistent state. Look at CAP theorem: it literally says "you can't have a perfect system here…

Backends also need to design/build for their operators.

Re: Low level is easy (2008)

#40

Post by fermentation »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #33
andai wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beware the eternal enginedev... many a brave soul have fallen to this trap.

Developing the engine is so much more fun though.

I think this is why developing emulators is fun. Once you’re done, the games have already been made for you!
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