Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#131

Post by JohnBooty » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 2:25 PM UTC

jsnell wrote: post #38

> I think the answer is because it’s not in their best interest to do so. They like that most consumers will look at these reviews, click through to Amazon and make their purchase with little hesitation. I don't understand the logic here. Why exactly would Google want people to thoughlessly click on Amazon affiliate links from other sites? There's no short-term beneft, since they don't get a cut. And there's no long-…

    And there's no long-term benefit, since it 
    just risks teaching people to go straight to 
    Amazon for commercial searches.

Yeah, I came here hoping somebody would have an answer to this seeming non-sequitur.

Google has been utterly useless for "what is the best X?" product search stuff for years, for exactly this reason.

The result in my case is that I've learned simply to not use Google for these searches. That is not good for Google.

The author says "Google, like many of the other tech giants, benefits from an uninformed user base" but I fail to see how that is the case. They benefit from a happy userbase that finds Google useful and therefore trusts Google with their time and personal information.

Sure, Clueless Cletus or Simple Sally might buy a bike from that clickbait bike article but I'm not sure they're walking away from the experience feeling that Google was particularly useful or helpful and wanting to rely upon them in the future.

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#132

Post by radlad » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 2:26 PM UTC

zwaps wrote: post #71

Hm, this is not really news, but perhaps it's the first time I consciously think about it. The article is right. I used to search Google for what the best X is. At some point. Indeed, I also used to search amazon and read the reviews. Now, and for what feels like a while, I am not doing that anymore. Like, at all. And this is not a decision I consciously made. If I want to know what the best dishwasher is, I am not g…

I still use Google, but with "reddit" or "wirecutter" or whatever else might have the information I need tacked on the end.

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#133

Post by oblio » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 2:26 PM UTC

squeaky-clean wrote: post #104

seoaeu wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is always weird to me that people think the quality of Google results compared to the past are a deliberate choice by Google, and not the consequence of an adversarial process where marketers spend billions of dollars trying to distort the rankings

It's a bit of both. The company I work at has a pretty big SEO department, and it's definitely frustrating how they're able to game web search. But also last week I was trying to Google something about earbuds (I don't even remember what exactly), and searching for ("earbuds" -headphones) still brings up headphones as a bolded result because of how aggressively it tries to use synonyms. Edit: just remembered a better…

> because of how aggressively it tries to use synonyms

That's a double edged sword.

One of the main reasons regular people fail to find stuff on Google, or at least failed in the past, was that you'd need to be a walking thesaurus to do it effectively (which techies generally are, for example).

They needed to help the less educated, too.

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#134

Post by lumost » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 2:26 PM UTC

baggy_trough wrote: post #114

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #106

I'd like to note, donning my #2 at amzn hat again, that when the idea for affiliate sales originally came up, we certainly did imagine people creating pages with lists like "best bikes for under $500". However, I feel fairly confident in saying that nobody involved in that in the 95-96 timeframe was imagining that such pages would be created by anyone other than actual enthusiasts (probably a reflection of the state…

An actual "best X for 202X" page is extremely useful; the problem is that there are no search signals to distinguish it from a trivially created spam mockery.

I think that's a failure of imagination. In the early days of search engines and web crawling companies paid subject matter experts such as librarians and other experts to manually grade and categorize web pages.

Spam pages tend to be filled with Ads and derivative content, owned by spam company domains, and do not provide unique information relative to other sources.

If we as humans can recognize a spam page, why can't the machines? At the very least Google can penalize repeated spam domain owners/domains to help reduce the problem.

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#135

Post by elthor89 » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 2:26 PM UTC

This sounds so familiar. I used to scour the internet for reviews before buying anything. Analysis paralysis is real, and I sometimes just give up buying at all.

Over the past years, I found more bad review websites than helpful ones. I doubt there are any real unbiased reviews.

Go to google, enter the ad trap Go to your local store, you have to deal with the sales target of the store. Go to Reddit or a forum, and the people there just want to justify their purchase.

It is all fine as long as you know it.

The authors solution to just go to a local bike shop and buy a bike is in my opinion still a reliable best. I assume he got the opportunity to test ride the bike before purchasing it.

My new approach is to write down what I want from the product. This gives me clarity. I still read reviews but take them less serious.

I either order online and once I receive my package I sent it back or keep it. Alternatively I just go to a physical store and try it out before buying it.

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#136

Post by padthai » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

SerLava wrote: post #82

mustacheemperor wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve found DuckDuckGo can be better at some searches, and at others far worse. I was recently trying to search up how to do something in Excel and every result from DDG was some “excel-help” website that was actually just parroting common search terms as the headers on non-articles full of ads. The entire search space has apparently been hijacked by what is essentially a fake help site. I see results like that on goo…

Similarly on Google and YouTube- nearly the entire search space for "how to pronounce xyz" has been taken over by videos of text to speech recordings that have absolutely no idea how to pronounce anything. There are huge YouTube channels posting this scam content, and they never seem to go away. There are real ones in there too, but there are way more spam words than real ones.

I use Forvo for this, it is great: https://forvo.com/

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#137

Post by oblio » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

bloniac wrote: post #31

A huge number of developers at Amazon and Google are clapping their hands with glee when the read this…. It’s their jobs to get exactly this outcome. They’ll show your post to the boss to lock in their bonus. This is the prime purpose of these gigantic companies. Of course it works like that. The smartest software developers in the world dedicate their working lives to advertising.

I don't get why you're downvoted. That's exactly why these things are failing.

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#138

Post by shp0ngle » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 2:29 PM UTC

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #66

iamben wrote: post #63

We're going to end up going back to community sites. Reddit is obviously the good example here, but you can guarantee if you find a 'racing bike' forum (or whatever), take the time to join up, search, ask - someone with a passion for it will give you a great, well researched list because they love it and take pride from knowing . Exactly the same as when I ask my friend who's passionate about wine for his recommendat…

I want you to be right but the GME and AMC nonsense doesn’t instill a lot of confidence that Reddit isn’t being gamed already by automated accounts. I’ve had my own comment altered a little and regurgitated by a bot before, which was extremely creepy. But you are right that the signal to noise is at least better on Reddit.

The GME/AMC nonsense will get downvoted on more serious subs.

The one that started it is called “wall street bets” and people openly call each other “retards” and “autists” over there.

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#139

Post by hoppyhoppy2 » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 2:29 PM UTC

antihero wrote: post #122

baggy_trough wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An actual "best X for 202X" page is extremely useful; the problem is that there are no search signals to distinguish it from a trivially created spam mockery.

There's consumer advocate sites like https://www.which.co.uk/ that are pretty cool. I'd be interesting in knowing other trustable sources, mind.

There is Consumer Reports in the US: http://cr.org They are a nonprofit that has been independent for decades and have strict policies against accepting gifts, sponsorships, ads, etc, and take other steps to remain free from influence. For example, when they review new cars they send an undercover individual to buy it at normal price from a random dealer so the company and the dealer don't know the buyer is CR (and maybe sweeten the deal or throw in upgrades or take steps to improve its reliability or whatever). They also review a lot of household and kitchen appliances, mattresses, etc.

The New York Times now has their "Wirecutter" reviews of tech and household stuff, but they do rely on affiliate links for income so take that as you will.

There is not a single independent consumer organization that can test every product out there, so if you're looking at road bikes you may end up with a different set of trusted reviewers than if you're looking at computer hard drives or roof shingles.

Re: Amazon has ruined search and Google is in on it

#140

Post by taeric » Thu, Jul 29, 2021, 2:29 PM UTC

This feels like a misunderstanding of what it means to have a good bike. If you aren't a regular rider, odds are high that no review will actually be relevant.

From how you want to be seated to how hard you can take a climb, bikes are stupid personal. Even tire choice is one that will float above entry level concerns.

Ignoring that bikes are heavy in ebike mode right now. And reviews are, by definition, expensive. I can tell you that I like my bike. I can't compare it to more than a couple of others, because I can't afford that many bikes.