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Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

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Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#461
post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This misses the point. "Liberty" isn't the freedom to put yourself at risk with no consequences to anyone or anything else. It is recognizing that there must be, at some point, a prioritization of giving people choices that might impact others. >individual freedoms must be balanced by the responsibilities Must be balanced not obliterated by "responsibilities".

>>> "Liberty" isn't the freedom to put yourself at risk with no consequences to anyone or anything else. >>> It is recognizing that there must be, at some point, a prioritization of giving people choices that might impact others. There will always be a set of people who prioritize themselves over others and in the case of corona as we have seen it just takes 1 selfish person to start the snowballing effectt. We are s…

Do you really believe what you have written here? People who chose not to take a jab are zombies to you?

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#462
post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1.8% case fatality rate That looks like a scary number until you look at it by age, then it looks very different. If you were at risk of dying from flu before COVID then your odds got worse, everybody else's risk level is largely unchanged. Should employers mandate that healthy employees get experimental vaccines in order to improve the mortality rate among non-employees who were already at risk of being taken out…

This reasoning works only if you believe the society isn’t supposed to help the vulnerable. It’s clear that the older you get, the worse your immunity works. A vaccine isn’t 100% efficient in the first place and will work worse on a 70 yo than on a 30 yo. This means that in order to protect the vulnerable, the society has to achieve herd immunity.

> This reasoning works only if you believe the society isn’t supposed to help the vulnerable.

This reasoning is used to justify horrific acts. Is there no limit? Obviously your line in the sand is beyond compelled experimental vaccinations... what about throwing virgins into volcanos? That might actually be more productive, as it could be no less effective in combatting the virus - and it might actually sate the power mad doom cult and show the elderly how devoted young people are to them.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#463
post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’ve read all the comments and can confidently say there’s nothing worth reading here I particularly dislike this type of comments, which tell people what to feel and think about a thread, however well meaning it might be. You're in a performative contradiction when you shallowly dismiss the entire thread with an overgeneralization and with that make it definitely less useful. Yes, this thread is more divided than…

The interesting discussions are not one-dimensional back-and-forth such as this one. It is when participants weigh multiple arguments against eachother and try to reach new insights. Discussion of value-systems are just hopeless, as there's no common ground.

That’s a really solid rule for productive discussions. The great difficulty would lie in actually enforcing it on HN.

Maybe some sort of cool-down timer for posters, who are otherwise polite, getting too agitated? Some kind of rate limiting for new comments on a controversial submission?

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#464

I’ve typed out 3 comments to 3 separate people before deleting them. I didn’t see the point. Folks, it’s a good idea to heed dang’s warning at the top of the thread. I’ve read all the comments and can confidently say there’s nothing worth reading here. Just people absolutely convinced of their ideas and principles, shouting past each other. Nothing we haven’t seen on this topic 50 times before. You’re better off goin…

It's typical. Entire pro-vax threads are allowed, but as soon as someone presents a different point of view the thread is locked and 'problematic' posts removed.

I think this is result of tribalism. People chose to divide into two groups on important matter, you can chose to belong to the group by sharing their belief system or not.

Why belief system? We read leaflets listing what are painkillers made from and what side effects might come out from taking them and yet we don't read leaflets when we take vaccinations. I personally don't know a single person who would read the documentation before taking vaccination. Acting like this is basically committing statement of faith.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"One thing everyone seems to ignore is those people that have immunity/antibodies and don't actually need a vaccine. Why is that?" It seems fairly clear that many COVID related policies are not justified by any physical or medical theory. It may appear that way on the surface but as you observe, it only takes a few moments to discover internal contradictions that some people are trying to cover up. The cause looks li…

How about some citations? At least a few of these claims are wrong. 2,3 I’ve definitely seen at least one study demonstrating the effectiveness of cloth masks in limiting the projectile spread of the disease. Like, recorded video exploring different masks (not all were effective). 5. China’s lockdown was effective, what are you talking about? To your last point, Brazil is a good example of a complete failure of indiv…

OK.

No lockdown has been or can be effective because their goal is to reduce case numbers yet when lockdowns are released, cases don't go up. Look at the UK case curves for the last weeks for an especially stark example. Scientists built models on the assumption that lockdowns were effective, and those models of course predicted a huge wave of cases. Politicians decided to proceed anyway with removing restrictions (the so-called "freedom day") and cases dropped drastically. If lockdowns are judged by their own standards of significantly suppressing case numbers, this outcome would not be possible.

Citation: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/28/many-variables-n...

"> This week, Prof Ferguson, of Imperial College, said he was positive the crisis would be in decline by the autumn, despite warning earlier in the month that it was "almost inevitable" that there would soon be 100,000 cases a day and possibly 200,000."

The UK is not the only place to have seen this outcome. When Texas decided to eliminate restrictions Biden was so confident that the restrictions were working he said it was "neanderthal thinking". Following their decision, nothing happened. Case curves didn't move at all. If the restrictions were having an impact, that should be impossible, because judged by their own standards their effectiveness is measured in impact on case curves.

Now it's my turn to ask you for citations. Why do you think China's lockdown was effective, in the face of evidence from so many other places that they don't work? And why do you think Brazil is a counter-example that shows collectivism works? Remembering that the tiger-protecting rock style arguments so often used to justify them are a fallacy.

Edit: oh, I forgot masks. By all means, cite your study, but it doesn't affect my point. Remember that masks as source control are justified by reference to asymptomatic/pre-symptomatic people. People who feel very sick with COVID don't want to go outside anyway, they want to stay at home in bed or even go to the hospital. Masks-for-all were therefore justified via reference to the presumed prevalence of people who didn't know they were sick but were spreading it anyway.

This itself has a large number of problems, e.g. when China tested all of Wuhan they concluded that asymptomatic infectiously people couldn't be found. Even the WHO stopped claiming there were asymptomatically infectious people quite early on, refining it only to pre-symptomatic. Given that, demonstrating that if you cough directly into a bit of cloth that most of the cough goes into it has no real relevance. If people were being told they only had to wear masks if they were visibly sick yet had to go outside anyway it might be relevant, but they weren't. Instead the rule was everyone has to wear masks, all the time, even if they are healthy, just in case they actually aren't. For that to work, physically, you have to demonstrate both that asymptomatic spread is a real thing, a large problem, that cloth masks block virus even when someone doesn't have any symptoms and that they block it sufficiently to actually matter.

Given that case curves look very smooth and organic, with no clear spikes or drops when mask mandates are added and removed, it seems clear that mask mandates don't work and isolated studies by motivated scientists aren't enough to change that: the ground truth is the data itself.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"just get vaccinated and not worry about getting fired" The word 'just' must be one of the most heavily used words of the last 18 months. The problem is that 'just' is the start of a slippery slope. Governments and organisations rarely withdraw authoritarian diktats, once we've allowed them in.

The vaccine has an overwhelming amount of data showing it's effective, and very little showing side effects. At some point it's a national responsibility to get it. If you don't, then there's nothing that says you should have a job at faang.

So effective that we're going back to mask mandates, talking feverishly about boosters, etc. And this is for already vaccinated individuals. Can't blame the boogeyman "anti-vaxxers" for increases in cases and hospitalizations in countries where Pfizer is readily admitting that the "immunity" granted by their product is "waning":

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-v...

Are we ready to have an adult conversation about mRNA gene therapy and how it differs from traditional vaccines? We're up to 3 shots a year already. Typical vaccines protect the individual for the rest of their life.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"dang" should be the one going for a walk. If you're going to let anti-vax nutjobs run rampant on your platform, why get upset when this causes problems? Of course the bigger issue it that HN's target audience is the libertarian/alt-right (who are nutjobs on multiple issues), so he has to "both sides" it so it doesn't appear they're being catered to

What do you propose to do with `anti-vax nutjobs`? They won't listen to you after reading the comment, which you try to completely dismiss and dehumanize them.

It isn't "dehumanizing" someone when they ignore substantial and overwhelming evidence and others point that out.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#468

I’ve typed out 3 comments to 3 separate people before deleting them. I didn’t see the point. Folks, it’s a good idea to heed dang’s warning at the top of the thread. I’ve read all the comments and can confidently say there’s nothing worth reading here. Just people absolutely convinced of their ideas and principles, shouting past each other. Nothing we haven’t seen on this topic 50 times before. You’re better off goin…

You are right, people who has contrarian views are only more entranced upon hearing counter arguments. Though the delta variant clearly shows vaccine works but if you get infected you don't die. Even with infection spikes in France or Spain for example you don't see deaths spike. In the low vaccination countries you see spike in the infections and in deaths.

Your information is not current as of yesterday evening. Of course the most current information is less reliable as is always the case with emerging information. The vaccines efficacy may be waning for protection from severe covid. Of course all of this is down to definitions and denominators. Are we testing all newly identified cases for variants?

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#469
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One has to believe at some point that liberty is worth a certain amount of risk. But you are not actually discussing anything related to freedom at all, right? You're just defending that your personal preferences should be unquestionably imposed onto everyone around you, aren't you? I mean, do you feel the measles or tetanus shots violate your freedom? I mean, if you really valued freedom then wouldn't you be doing…

>If a small but militant group insists in putting everyone at risk by intentionally and systematically violating basic health and safety precautions then the only hope society has is to mitigate this risk. Who is militant? And they aren't putting "everyone" at risk. They are putting themselves at risk surely, but the risk doesn't really spread to people who have been vaccinated. >You need to prove you are vaccinated…

> They are putting themselves at risk surely, but the risk doesn't really spread to people who have been vaccinated.

They _are_ putting those who have been vaccinated at risk since vaccinated people can still get sick. Also this ignores all of those who wish to, but can't be vaccinated for one reason or another.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#470
A lot of talk here about the getting the vaccination is a moral imperative for the greater public safety. One parable I can think of is mandatory abortions. At a time where the planets resources are diminishing surely another human is a risk to us all. And who’s to say someone’s child doesn’t end being a deranged, homicidal maniac. Women have an imperative, no are required by law, to abort at the earliest possible moment. And compared to the Varus, there is a 100% chance a child will use up resources, opposed to whatever new kill rate the virus has. There are a lot of our-there defences for anti-vax, the ones that make the most sense are: (1) COVID is not as deadly as the news cycle makes it out, (2) the vaccine is still in trial, (3) there are no repercussions for vaccine producers. Of course, the implications of these points is what turns off the other side. The loudest theory in the room gets noticed, and that happens to be 5G microchips or whatever. When really, it’s just a new tax on everyday people. Politicians have an interest in the companies producing the vaccine so they’ll enforce laws to make them mandatory. The surveillance state loves any excuse to track us more than they are already. Splintering the population along ideological lines further benefits the system in place. So, yes, regarding the implications of points (1), (2) and (3), I believe the system in place would willingly manipulate this non-issue for its own benefit. And, if your argument is vaccination is better for society as a whole see parable above.
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