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Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

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Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#181
post #177

Can someone explain the “I won’t get it until it’s fully approved by the FDA” logic to me? Unlike usual vaccine trials, these vaccines have been deployed worldwide with hundreds of millions of people across many different conditions. Europe stopped using some due to an extremely rare blood clotting episode that was tens of people out millions. That suggests that rare, acute side effects have been (mostly?) discovered…

I expect for the most part it’s a fig leaf, and when it is approved the goal posts will move. Then it will be, “the FDA rushed approval” with no evidence presented or required.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#182
post #5

To be perfectly clear, they are mandating employees be vaccinated if they want to physically go in to an office, not to do (or keep) their jobs.

Exactly -- people are still free to not get vaccinated, but they're not free to go to aggregate settings where they might infect everyone there, which seems like a reasonable compromise. It's the same approach as with antivax parents -- don't want your kids vaccinated? Then you'll need to homeschool them.

> Then you'll need to homeschool them.

This would be fair if the equivalent public school spending for that student were instead given back to parents as a voucher to spend on homeschooling or on a different education provider of their choice with different vaccination requirements. But otherwise there is a financial coercion into divulging health choices or giving up bodily autonomy that doesn’t feel right to me.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#183
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No “papers please” to allow me to participate in normal society where the group in power gets to decide if I’m acceptable. What are your thoughts on individuals contracting and spreading a disease that has killed millions already due to their refusal to comply with the most basic health and safety precautions? Do you believe that someone's refusal to comply with basic sanitary precautions should take precedence ove…

One has to believe at some point that liberty is worth a certain amount of risk. >Do you believe that someone's refusal to comply with basic sanitary precautions should take precedence over my and my family and loved one's desire to not die of a preventable disease? Did you and your family get vaccinated? What unvaccinated people do does not affect your risk profile in any meaningful way. Are your kids too young to g…

> One has to believe at some point that liberty is worth a certain amount of risk.

But you are not actually discussing anything related to freedom at all, right? You're just defending that your personal preferences should be unquestionably imposed onto everyone around you, aren't you?

I mean, do you feel the measles or tetanus shots violate your freedom?

I mean, if you really valued freedom then wouldn't you be doing your hardest to ensure that everyone around you should, say, not risk death by an easily preventable disease in spite of everyone except you taking basic precautions?

> Do you get asked if you've had a measles vaccine before you get seated at a restaurant? Are you suggesting this is a reasonable action?

You need to prove you are vaccinated when you travel internationally or enroll in a job or join a school.

And this is an absolutely mundane thing for the entire world, because it's easily understood these are very basic precautions to not contract or risk transmitting diseases.

There is no measles outbreak or even pandemic. There is however a covid pandemic. If you wish to get back to a normal life, the very least we can do is to mitigate the risk covid poses to society. This involves basic stuff like respecting social distancing, wearing a face mask, washing your hands, and get the vaccine.

If a small but militant group insists in putting everyone at risk by intentionally and systematically violating basic health and safety precautions then the only hope society has is to mitigate this risk.

So why yes, obviously yes. Don't you agree? Or do you actually believe that an individual's whims and irresponsiblr and reckless behavior should simply put everyone else's life at risk just because?

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#184
I’ve typed out 3 comments to 3 separate people before deleting them. I didn’t see the point.

Folks, it’s a good idea to heed dang’s warning at the top of the thread. I’ve read all the comments and can confidently say there’s nothing worth reading here. Just people absolutely convinced of their ideas and principles, shouting past each other. Nothing we haven’t seen on this topic 50 times before.

You’re better off going outside for a walk.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#185

To be perfectly clear, they are mandating employees be vaccinated if they want to physically go in to an office, not to do (or keep) their jobs.

> To be perfectly clear, they are mandating employees be vaccinated if they want to physically go in to an office, not to do (or keep) their jobs That is not perfectly clear actually. From what I’ve heard refusal requires a “talk” with the HR. Sounds like termination is on the menu if company doesn’t want to grant remote privileges to that person.

What happens to people with health problems preventing vaccination? I assume they would ask for proof, at which point you have to reveal your private health condition.

EDIT: I suppose a doctor's note could say you can't be vaccinated without revealing why.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#186

Current research shows that the previously infected’s antibodies are equal-to or better than the vaccine. So previously infected should be sufficient, yet I expect these companies not to care about that

Oh that is interesting. Most Data have shown previous infection tends to have much better Anti-Bodies than all vaccines. And I was under the impression that previous infection automatically equaled to have vaccinated, at least in the few countries I know of.

So that is not the case in US and you still have to get a vaccine? Or is it simply because there is no "proof" that you have been previously infected?

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#187
post #177

Can someone explain the “I won’t get it until it’s fully approved by the FDA” logic to me? Unlike usual vaccine trials, these vaccines have been deployed worldwide with hundreds of millions of people across many different conditions. Europe stopped using some due to an extremely rare blood clotting episode that was tens of people out millions. That suggests that rare, acute side effects have been (mostly?) discovered…

I set myself a smart goal. 2024. clinical trials for all will be finished by the end of 2023 at the latest and then, give it a couple months to wrap up and draft or bury and reports.

that is my basis. it's Smart.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#188

To be perfectly clear, they are mandating employees be vaccinated if they want to physically go in to an office, not to do (or keep) their jobs.

Given that the CDC just admitted that vaccinated people can also spread COVID (by reissuing mask guidance), what is the point of requiring vaccinations?

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#189
Like many others here, I am concerned about the influence that large corporations have on public health policy and personal health decisions.

Is it fair to legally require these corporations to disclose conflicts of interest (eg investment in vaccines, or manufacturers thereof) given decisions of this magnitude?

Can they be held accountable if scientific consensus changes, such that it in hindsight it becomes obvious that forcing vaccinated people to return to densely populated indoor buildings further jeopardized public health in general? To be more concrete with respect to how such a situation may unfold, please see this peer reviewed paper published in April 2021 "Risk of rapid evolutionary escape from biomedical interventions targeting SARS-CoV-2 spike protein"[1].

Some key highlights from [1]:

- "Evidence from multiple experimental studies showing that single RBD point mutations can lead to resistance to neutralizing convalescent plasma from multiple donors suggests that specific single mutants may be able to evade spike-targeting vaccinal immunity in many individuals and rapidly lead to spread of vaccine-resistant SARS-CoV-2."

- "Our work suggests that it is likely that standing genetic variation alone has already produced a substantial population of viruses with single and double nucleotide changes that confer nAb resistance. These variants will establish quickly in the population under selection pressure. In fact, there is already a precedent for this behavior, as one such selective sweep occurred early on in the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic when the D614G mutation rose to nearly 80% frequency in under 6 months [33]."

- "The speed at which nAb resistance develops in the population increases substantially as the number of infected individuals increases, suggesting that complementary strategies to prevent SARS-CoV-2 transmission that exert specific pressure on other proteins (e.g., antiviral prophylactics) or that do not exert a specific selective pressure on the virus (e.g., high-efficiency air filtration, masking, ultraviolet air purification) are key to reducing the risk of immune escape. In this context, vaccines that do not provide sterilizing immunity (and therefore continue to permit transmission) will lead to the buildup of large standing populations of virus, greatly increasing the risk of immune escape."

- "The juxtaposition of a relatively constrained immune response against the high degree of evolutionary plasticity of the spike RBD (visible even under neutral drift conditions) suggests that SARS-CoV-2 has extensive capacity to evolve to evade nAbs targeting a small number of antigenic regions. This capacity will negatively impact SARS-CoV-2 immunity in humans, whether active (vaccinal or natural) or passive (nAb prophylactics)."

[1] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#190
post #177

Can someone explain the “I won’t get it until it’s fully approved by the FDA” logic to me? Unlike usual vaccine trials, these vaccines have been deployed worldwide with hundreds of millions of people across many different conditions. Europe stopped using some due to an extremely rare blood clotting episode that was tens of people out millions. That suggests that rare, acute side effects have been (mostly?) discovered…

I'm not sure I can explain anything related to the FDA (I'm European) but maybe I can shed some light on the insight what people are worried about.

These vaccines have been applied hundreds of million times in the past year, true. Therefore, we have a very good understanding of their adverse effects in the first 6-12 months. What we cannot know, however, are possible adverse effects that are longer term. Susceptibility to other diseases maybe due to a weakened immune system. Possibly a higher prevalence of autoimmune diseases.

If these vaccines were regular, inactivated virus vaccines, we could extrapolate long term effects from other similar vaccines. But this is brand new technology which affects our immune system, which is far from completely understood.

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