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Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

theapeiron.co.uk

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Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#381

Post by sfink »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #39
oconnor663 wrote: post #20

Downvotes on something like reddit are very different from downvotes on something like Facebook. Imagine being a teenager and getting downvoted by your own friends. These are complicated tradeoffs of course, but that's an important part of the story.

Negative feedback from your peer group is normal, and provides conformity pressures, which is important when forming and maintaining a community bound together by a common culture.

In my opinion, that mechanism didn't survive the transition to online. Or rather, it survived all too well; it grew fangs and learned how to breathe fire.

In an in-person peer group, there are a lot more subtle gradations in disapproval. "Dude, that's not cool!" is very different from looking at someone askance. Overt signals require everyone else present to take a position on something. Subtle ones don't.

Being downvoted on a Facebook peer group of teens is an overt signal. Everyone is going to take sides. It's not that it doesn't happen in person, it's just that online it makes everything into a Big Deal. That produces bland communities with fear-based conformity.

To do better, you'd need something that can support richer communication, allowing for more nuance. One possibility that comes to mind is emojis -- a group can (and does) form its own vocabulary based on emoji-only responses that may only have meaning within a group. But they can serve the purpose. If I were a teen, or more active in social forums, I might know if that's already happening.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#382

Post by anigbrowl »

nescioquid wrote: post #211
yoran wrote: post #56

I think Americans don't give enough attention to the bi-party system as an important cause for the current political divide, and increasingly, civil divide. My hypothesis is that a two-party system creates the divide because it encourages such a powerful "us vs them" feeling. I've never seen such disdain or hatred towards people on the other side of the political spectrum as in the US. I'm from continental Europe and…

> a two-party system creates the divide because it encourages such a powerful "us vs them" feeling I agree, but that's just the punch-and-judy show. The real disaffection stems from seeing how the incentives of politicians are reliably not aligned with their nominal constituents. We have legal precedent establishing money as speech, and a steep hill to climb for any third party to win the prerogatives which the two m…

Unless you are in a jurisdiction which offers ranked choice voting, then this is equivalent to throwing your vote away and then being surprised when nobody wants it. Also, and orthogonally, eliding the distinctions between the two main parties over a systemic issue that arises out of the constitutional structure means that a party can be incentivized to discourage you from voting by pandering to your dissatisfaction using sockpuppets.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#383

Post by LinuxBender »

denton-scratch wrote: post #356
LinuxBender wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an academic experiment, one could post a message here on HN and on Usenet to see how the interaction plays out on each platform. On Usenet, people can not vote or moderate your message. Messages are only removed from Usenet relays if they violate law for the most part. Anyone can reply if interested in doing so, with any text or content. Has anyone done this experiment recently?

On Usenet, you can moderate your own incoming messages. Assuming you have a suitable newsreader (I know of none that are not suitable for use with killfiles).

Opt-In self moderation is great. You can even do that here on HN with add-ons like uBlock.

From My Filters

  ycombinator.com##.itemlist > tbody > tr.athing:has-text(political)
  ycombinator.com##.itemlist > tbody > tr.athing:has-text(political)+tr
  ycombinator.com##.itemlist > tbody > tr.athing:has-text(political)+tr+tr
More examples [0] and there are a few other incantations of this.

[0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22781635

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#384

Post by Asraelite »

loceng wrote: post #371
dmkolobov wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something that I've learned: nobody owes you an explanation for why they disagree with you, nor are they bound to care whether you learn something. Furthermore, I would argue that self-reflection about why people might disagree with your viewpoints is a valuable experience in that it provides an opportunity to practice empathy and awareness in how your words are perceived by others.

What makes you think no one owes you an explanation? If they're downvoting you and influencing how visible your comment(s) are I'd argue they do need to explain. Likewise you seem to need to take your own advice to brainstorm to understand why it is likely to add value to someone else leaving a comment and not simply requiring you to brainstorm and make guesses, e.g. bias and blind spots a person may have; what other…

This is a perfect example of the point. I hold your view too, but your comment is being downvoted and I have no idea what the counterarguments are. It would be enlightening to know.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#385

Post by anigbrowl »

motohagiography wrote: post #312

While I don't think they are useful, I have come to relish downvotes because if I have provoked a snide response at least it is sincere, where a downvote means I have threatened the integrity of a narrative - and that's when you know it's quality writing. Downvotes are a substitute for discourse. If want something better, post it. It's like someone wanted to design a product for a braying, superstitious mob and creat…

a downvote means I have threatened the integrity of a narrative - and that's when you know it's quality writing.

Neither your premise nor your conclusion are valid. A downvote could simply mean you stated a counterfactual or alleged a fallacy. Nor can any automatic inference of quality be drawn. By your logic, someone who just posts the equivalent of fart noises and is habitually downvoted for doing so is a genius.

Frankly, your comment's harping on shaping narrative seems like a case of projection.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#386

Post by themacguffinman »

renewiltord wrote: post #282
dahart wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you have a lot more fear and assumption than experience here. In reality, crazy unfair downvote bombing is not even close to the norm here in my ~decade of experience. What makes you certain that someone with multiple accounts has downvoted you? Are you sure you weren’t just wrong and didn’t know it? I’ve been wrong in good faith and gotten fairly downvoted for it far, far more often than I’ve been unf…

I find it amusing but people will go downvote unrelated stuff once you offend them. I can tell because I’ll get a flood of downvotes across unrelated comments when I make a controversial post. Of course that’s all fine. I have no right to participate in this community and the community has a right to behave how it does. Or perhaps I’m just miscalibrated and I’m saying totally douchey things here (only provided for ex…

I'm just speculating here, I don't think your linked example comment was downvoted because it was douchey or because you offended people in other comments. In my experience, comments like your example are downvoted because they're "obviously" wrong or irrelevant, which is of course very subjective. Clearly you don't think your own comment is obviously wrong or irrelevant, but you were rebutting "people don't want to send cryptocurrencies in their messaging app" by pointing out how useful you find Venmo: an app that is popular for sending non-crypto legal tender.

FWIW I didn't downvote your comment when I encountered it days ago, but I do notice that comments that have very basic logical flaws in them tend to be downvoted without replies. Downvotes aren't just a tool to enforce civility. This is just my assessment of your comment, I hope you take it in the good faith that I intended.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#387

Post by cutemonster »

sixstringtheory wrote: post #344
pvg wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't really work because every bad comment would have to generate a massive subthreads of repetitive explanations of its badness. It's also worth thinking about why this logic is so readily applied to downvotes but not upvotes. Presumably you learn nothing from a plain upvote so upvotes should come with a note as well, right?

> generate a massive subthreads of repetitive explanations I just recently heard about a system where upvotes/downvotes themselves could be upvoted/downvoted. I could see a system like that to avoid the duplication, and if every original vote came with explanation, it would be nearly indistinguishable from regular conversation. Plus, something getting downvoted would presumably get less traction over time since it’d…

Reminds me of "was this review helpful" feature at many websites that sell things that can get reviewed. But "was this up/downvote helpful" instead? (I like the idea)

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#388

Post by giantrobot »

asteroidbelt wrote: post #241
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you say anything positive or negative about something people hold as part of their identity you're going to get a response. I think it's better that you get votes, instead of a bunch of emotional comments.

No, it is better to get comments, even emotional and not well written. Because with comments I might understand where I was wrong, or at least know where exactly my opponent disagrees with me, because it I could have written a wall of text, not every sentence of it is wrong. Even a comment like "fuck you you are dumb bastard hateful shit" tells me much more than a downvote. With comment like that I know that the oppo…

> Because with comments I might understand where I was wrong

Someone can disagree with you without you being wrong. If you think they are wrong in their response...what good is being done? If you both have intractable positions then more discussion on the topic is just lengthening scroll bars.

Additionally if I disagree with you or just think you're wrong I don't owe you any explanation of that. You don't have a right to my time because we disagree. It's not my job to convince you. I may choose to reply to you (as I obviously just have) but it's my choice entirely. You may reply back to me and I may never ever read it, I don't have any requirement to do so.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#389

Post by alach11 »

dmkolobov wrote: post #336
tasty_freeze wrote: post #291

I think it should be required that when a person downvotes a post or comment, they should need to supply a comment as to why. That would have multiple benefits. One, it is maddening to make a comment in earnest and get downvoted but no feedback why it was downvoted. Two, it would reduce the number of people who downvote a comment simply because they disagree as they would have to expose their own opinion and risk the…

Something that I've learned: nobody owes you an explanation for why they disagree with you, nor are they bound to care whether you learn something. Furthermore, I would argue that self-reflection about why people might disagree with your viewpoints is a valuable experience in that it provides an opportunity to practice empathy and awareness in how your words are perceived by others.

In many communities (HN, Reddit, etc.) downvotes are ostensibly not to be used for disagreement. Forcing users to supply a reason could introduce enough friction to encourage more thoughtful usage of the downvote.

Re: Please Bring Back Our Downvotes: Society Desperately Needs It

#390

Post by z3ncyberpunk »

_trampeltier wrote: post #379
dmkolobov wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something that I've learned: nobody owes you an explanation for why they disagree with you, nor are they bound to care whether you learn something. Furthermore, I would argue that self-reflection about why people might disagree with your viewpoints is a valuable experience in that it provides an opportunity to practice empathy and awareness in how your words are perceived by others.

I'm almost just on HN so I can't talk about other places. But the few times I get downvotes I would like to know why somebody voted me down.

But why? Why do you need validation that badly?
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