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Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

arstechnica.com

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Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#21

Post by bildung »

The FUD accusations seem a bit hasty here. The linked Senate hearing doesn't seem to contain negative things about BEVs (it only criticizes the "narrow focus" on them), but instead opts for including hybrid and hydrogen, with the argument being that "recent data shows that plug-in hybrids can achieve nearly the same or better GHG reductions than BEVs depending on your daily driving patterns, the carbon in the electric grid, the carbon resulting from battery production, and other factors." https://www.energy.senate.gov/services/files/E2EA0E4F-BAD9-4...

That may be wrong, but the ars article didn't have any counter arguments.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#22

Post by wil421 »

rantwasp wrote: post #14
ramesh31 wrote: post #6

I think they bet perfectly fine, if you ignore the silly hydrogen efforts. Toyota has never been a technological front runner. They take the Apple approach; wait for something to be truly ready for prime time, then execute it better than anyone else. EV's are still 2% of the US market. And it will be a decade more until a 60+kwH EV is being sold for <$30k total upfront price out the door, which is where they need to…

haha. as far as new car tech goes Toyota is okay on adoption. You should see the tech from the past that VW has in its cars.

Disagree.

2016 VW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-eoEKrjAtM

2016 4runner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcm1nz_Zwn8

The VW looks similar to my FCA uConnect system. The 4runner looks like an Alpine head unit I put in my 2002 4 runner in the 2008/9 timeframe. Pretty sure Toyota killed the CD player in the last 3-4 years.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#23

Post by sixQuarks »

rantwasp wrote: post #11
ashtonkem wrote: post #4

My pet theory is that Toyota or Honda will be on life support by the end of next decade, if not dead. They both had a huge head start in batteries with their hybrids (Honda’s first hybrid was released in 1999), and they squandered it. Hopefully the Korean car companies crush them with superior products.

that’s a bold prediction. i don’t think it’s going to happen. building a car is about more than just the engine. It’s about the supply chain, it’s about parts, it’s about service. Toyota and Honda have a lot more experience in this area than a new-ish car manufacturer. They also build reliable, great cars that I like owning and driving. I like how everyone is up in arms about Toyota doing something [that serves their…

So you’re ok with Toyota spreading FUD as long as it’s legal. Got it.

As for Tesla’s government money, ev credits are available to all manufacturers, it’s not Tesla’s fault others can’t make compelling electric vehicles. All other government loans have been paid back in full.

Maybe you should read more than just headlines

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#24

Post by XorNot »

modeless wrote: post #16
tharne wrote: post #5

Articles like this misunderstand both innovation and capitalism. Progress isn't typically made by some unusually smart person or enterprise gazing into the future and creating the perfect thing. It happens by lots of individuals and companies making bets and guesses, most of which are wrong, but some turn out the be right. That way the overall system can be brilliant regardless of whether or not the individual actors…

Hydrogen for cars was an obvious boondoggle for a decade or more. There's making guesses and then there's ignoring obvious trends. Toyota did the latter. Edit: And to prove that I thought it was obvious a decade ago, here's my opinion from a decade ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3070004

I'm not sold that this has been established yet: technology moves in mysterious ways.

For example EVs don't have an answer to long distance transportation yet (it should be trains, that are easily automated, but I'm not god emperor). You could imagine a future where greening that industry necessitates a storable, pumpable fuel and suddenly hydrogen infrastructure is a thing that personal vehicles could be built against.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#25

Post by ramesh31 »

wil421 wrote: post #22
rantwasp wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

haha. as far as new car tech goes Toyota is okay on adoption. You should see the tech from the past that VW has in its cars.

Disagree. 2016 VW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-eoEKrjAtM 2016 4runner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcm1nz_Zwn8 The VW looks similar to my FCA uConnect system. The 4runner looks like an Alpine head unit I put in my 2002 4 runner in the 2008/9 timeframe. Pretty sure Toyota killed the CD player in the last 3-4 years.

Yeah Toyota literally did not offer Apple CarPlay on any trim level of any vehicle until the 2020 model year, it was insane.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#26

Post by MattRix »

tharne wrote: post #5

Articles like this misunderstand both innovation and capitalism. Progress isn't typically made by some unusually smart person or enterprise gazing into the future and creating the perfect thing. It happens by lots of individuals and companies making bets and guesses, most of which are wrong, but some turn out the be right. That way the overall system can be brilliant regardless of whether or not the individual actors…

Is this always true? The iPhone seems like a pretty clear argument to the contrary. As far as cars go, Tesla is a clear outlier pushing innovation. I mean sure you can argue that eventually the rest of the field will catch up, but there are many advantages to being a first mover.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#27

Post by harles »

MelvinButtsESQ wrote: post #19

Production of batteries is the constraint ... previously, currently, and in foreseeable future ( Further, given this capacity, the numbers work out such that we are, on the macro level, DRASTICALLY more fuel efficient and environmentally friendly by putting more hybrids and Plug-in Hybrids (which have fewer batteries) on the road than we are by reserving said batteries for fewer pure EVs. 2.5 Priuses are better than…

On the flip side, going all EV puts 2.5x more pressure on the supply chain to remove battery production and capacity as a constraint, which might be optimal long term.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#28

Post by ajmurmann »

MelvinButtsESQ wrote: post #19

Production of batteries is the constraint ... previously, currently, and in foreseeable future ( Further, given this capacity, the numbers work out such that we are, on the macro level, DRASTICALLY more fuel efficient and environmentally friendly by putting more hybrids and Plug-in Hybrids (which have fewer batteries) on the road than we are by reserving said batteries for fewer pure EVs. 2.5 Priuses are better than…

Why mandate how emissions are cut, instead of heavily taxing carbon emissions and having the market find the best solution?

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#29

Post by ramesh31 »

bildung wrote: post #21

The FUD accusations seem a bit hasty here. The linked Senate hearing doesn't seem to contain negative things about BEVs (it only criticizes the "narrow focus" on them), but instead opts for including hybrid and hydrogen, with the argument being that "recent data shows that plug-in hybrids can achieve nearly the same or better GHG reductions than BEVs depending on your daily driving patterns, the carbon in the electri…

>depending on your daily driving patterns

This is the key point. Modern highly efficient turbocharged 4 cylinder ICE vehicles can be equally or more efficient than a hybrid in the right circumstances as well. But the vast majority of driving is city streets <45mph, where ICE can't even come close to BEV.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#30

Post by nkingsy »

bildung wrote: post #21

The FUD accusations seem a bit hasty here. The linked Senate hearing doesn't seem to contain negative things about BEVs (it only criticizes the "narrow focus" on them), but instead opts for including hybrid and hydrogen, with the argument being that "recent data shows that plug-in hybrids can achieve nearly the same or better GHG reductions than BEVs depending on your daily driving patterns, the carbon in the electri…

I wonder if these arguments take into account decreased battery life with a smaller battery in a plug in hybrid. From what I know about li-ion, the larger battery should expect many more charge cycles before degradation than the smaller one, given the same power draw.

There would have to be some kind of argument that the bigger battery leaves capacity on the table during its life somehow, which would mean the battery is still expected to be useful when the car is retired?

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