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No-code startup Bubble raises $100M

reuters.com

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Re: No-code startup Bubble raises $100M

#61

Post by quickthrower2 »

deeviant wrote: post #10

I think the biggest problem with this approach is at some point, they necessarily reach a level of complexity that it takes the same amount of time to learn how to use their "no-code" tools than it does to just learn how to code.

I hope with $100m they can solve this. I think the only way to solve this is to hard-code so many different use cases into the gallery of controls, workflows and repeaters etc. that anything you dream of is easy to build.

They also need to invest heavily into UX and the ease of figuring out how to do something. I've used Bubble and similar tools, and they share something in common with coding - you need to watch/read a bunch of tutorials to figure out how to do what you need.

What they save is an initial headache of devops / authentication / wrangling which is bad enough as a programmer but extra hard for a non programmer to contend with.

Here is another idea for someone - a yes-code tool that lets you write everything in code, but handles devops/authentication and some common stuff for you. Basically Heroku + some NodeJS starter kit that is meticulously kept up to date.

Re: No-code startup Bubble raises $100M

#62

Post by feoren »

animalgonzales wrote: post #2

wtf they want people who know coffeescript https://bubble.io/job?jid=4377554002

Ah yes, one of the many languages where designers were like "you know what sucks about writing code? All that damn punctuation you write! It takes so long to type those curly braces. We're going to make a language where all our punctuation is invisible! Our code will be so much cleaner when all these important control-flow and context-determining marks are unable to be seen anymore!"

Looking at you, Python, YAML, and Coffeescript.

Re: No-code startup Bubble raises $100M

#63

Post by redisman »

deeviant wrote: post #10

I think the biggest problem with this approach is at some point, they necessarily reach a level of complexity that it takes the same amount of time to learn how to use their "no-code" tools than it does to just learn how to code.

It's frustrating. Especially now that I'm nearing 15 years as a professional coder, I already spend less and less time typing and more thinking and working on different views on the problem. Typing or reading text is not difficult!

Re: No-code startup Bubble raises $100M

#64

Post by redisman »

encryptluks2 wrote: post #14
whall6 wrote: post #6

If you need to go through a boot camp to be able to use it, why not just learn to code?

That is how I often feel about cloud providers like AWS. If you have to invest most of your time in becoming an AWS pro in order use it correctly, why not just learn how to build out a cloud using open standards.. at least that way you actually learned something useful, and not just a vendor solution that serves little purpose outside of its locked-in ecosystem.

Can you really compare these two without completely ignoring reality? With Bubble you can do some limited MVPs. With AWS you can deploy services to billions of people.

Re: No-code startup Bubble raises $100M

#65

Post by feoren »

nexuist wrote: post #52
neatze wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You type in English what you want the application to do. In my experience this is the hardest part of coding, to a large degree.

Because modern coding is still too low level to allow quick development of full blown applications. It would be really annoying if you had to tell a Subway employee behind the counter how to use their hands to pick up ingredients, how many ingredients to pick up, when to move the sandwich down the line, when to stop applying mayo etc. Instead we can just tell them to make a BLT sandwich and they'll do it with little…

Just like everyone who thinks no-code solutions are a good idea, you are fundamentally misunderstanding what programmers do. We're not assembly-line workers banging out code as the product. The assembly line is the compiler. We're researchers, engineers, and artists; the code is the design document. You're saying you'd like the sandwich maker at Subway to make you a brand new sandwich that has never existed before without having to micro-manage what they actually put on it.

Writing code is nothing like micro-managing muscle movements, unless you're development an action that has never been done before (in that particular environment, circumstances, etc.). The level of abstraction in programming has been increasing every year since the 50s, and most of the code I write is me simply stating what I want to have happen at a very high level. When you want a BLT, you call getBLT(), unless a BLT is a brand new thing that has never existed before.

The "don't reinvent the wheel" crowd massively under-estimates the size of the problem space we are exploring. The space of possible problems to solve is unimaginably huge. There's always reason for new wheels when there are 10^10^400 different terrains to drive on.

Re: No-code startup Bubble raises $100M

#66

Post by layoutIfNeeded »

_carbyau_ wrote: post #50
brundolf wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if a more useful category would be "just-code". I.e., even today you have to know quite a bit of auxiliary stuff about computers, your environment, tooling, networking, to realistically contribute to a real codebase (much less start one from scratch!). I think this is the real unnecessary barrier. Logic doesn't go away, but plenty of smart people can do logic who don't want to learn esoterica about fixing th…

I have seen simple things in Open Source Programs that I know I could track down and fix. Off by one errors, modulus stuff and such. Do open source projects have an obvious "run this script to configure your complete dev environment in respect to this project" ? I would be happy to spin up a new VM for every project on that basis.

>Do open source projects have an obvious "run this script to configure your complete dev environment in respect to this project" ?

./configure

Re: No-code startup Bubble raises $100M

#67

Post by janmo »

10 years ago I worked for a startup that wanted to exactly the same. Basically it was a toolbox where you could add things such as a map, an image gallery, texts, documents. It was back in the days where everyone wanted to have an app even if they didn't needed. For example restaurants. The project failed, it was just way too complicated, both for the end user and the development of the project itself. Also a lot of stuff was faked. When some one would order the App, it would still be "Compiled" by a developer and "compiling" meant basically coding what the customer had ordered within 2 days.

Anyway, at least in their case you had access to the final source code.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that you are probably far better of if you hire a random guy from India on Fiverr to the app for you.

Re: No-code startup Bubble raises $100M

#68

Post by layoutIfNeeded »

motoxpro wrote: post #59
deeviant wrote: post #10

I think the biggest problem with this approach is at some point, they necessarily reach a level of complexity that it takes the same amount of time to learn how to use their "no-code" tools than it does to just learn how to code.

I think the problem is that you don't need a "mature" product to make millions of dollars. It's similar to Shopify, I can put up a store in ~20 mins and start selling immediately. I would be extremely misguided to try to "build an platform" when that problem has already been solved. Same with no-code. Why code it from scratch when it's been solved already? If you want to go super deep, sure. Seems like the hate comes…

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Re: No-code startup Bubble raises $100M

#69

Post by lucasverra »

deeviant wrote: post #10

I think the biggest problem with this approach is at some point, they necessarily reach a level of complexity that it takes the same amount of time to learn how to use their "no-code" tools than it does to just learn how to code.

Simply not true.

I’ve been programming with bubble from “technical aware founder PM/founder” and bubble is liberating.

In the past i’ve built a webapp that :

- Renders desktop

- Renders mobile

- store in database

- after a conditional form

- create a complex journey of to do list with defaults based on answers of previous cond. form

- connects to an external system with cron daily

- sends email daily from backend

- uses plugins from community

- much more

The deal with bubble is : - resources cutting 10X - if you manage to understand the adequate scope (serving up to multiple thousands) with no such fancy ui, with not blazing extreme loading perf (since no focus on static)

Bubble is : - Build 10x faster a custom ish layout with custom logic to get your first 10k users. (NPM available if you code)

Does it scale to infinity? No

Will you need code after that. Most probably. But you got there with 10x less ressources

Re: No-code startup Bubble raises $100M

#70

Post by feoren »

jimmy2020 wrote: post #49

I am not expecting developers to welcome the new "No-code" movement. But eventually, it will happen. An app that's capable of building itself, supposed to be the next generation of building apps. Take a look at web development. It's revolutionary and changing fast. Users have more power than anytime before. More flexibility is being added every day with the rising of third parties services that make development faste…

The vast majority of software being written today is still CRUD applications centered on a database using a groupthink architecture where every noun gets a table and everything you ever want to know about that noun goes into that table. They're extremely brittle, completely un-reusable, and virtually un-maintainable. Meanwhile the front-end tech is iterating rapidly because we're at the very beginning of that sigmoid curve, not toward the end. Software engineering is still very much a baby discipline. We are brand, brand new, and not nearly as advanced as you seem to think.

Meanwhile Bridge Engineering, a 4000-year-old discipline, is still inventing new ideas and is still done almost entirely by human engineers. They use computers to multiply their expertise, but in no way are the computers "designing the bridge" for them. Why would automation make software engineers obsolete when that hasn't happened to bridge engineers (and shows no sign of coming)? Apps have been "building themselves" for decades: it's called a compiler.

How do you manage complexity? With software engineering. Writing software without writing code is like trying to design a bridge without doing math.

And if it's those crappy, un-maintainable, un-reusable CRUD applications you're saying no-code will replace, then I say: good riddance! But even if no-code is more successful than its wildest dreams, it's still just automating that lowest tier of programmer. Meanwhile, better abstractions, programming languages, type systems, mathematical advances, training programs, techniques, and architectures have been raising that water level every year for a long time. Even a good no-code solution has a very limited expected life when it's competing with that.

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