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The Grayness of the Origin of Life

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Re: The Grayness of the Origin of Life

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a scientific point of view we can - not just will - never know the origin of life. Of course, popular science frames it differently.

What makes it fundamentally impossible to know the origin of life? It seems we are likely to develop and refine experiments and theories that approximate the initial conditions and processes by which life took hold. Some of the details of how it happened are certainly lost to time, but it seems there's a lot of room for exploration towards a fairly valid model.

I think they may be arguing semantics of knowing versus believing, and especially the loss of information to the eventual increase of entropy.

I don't think there's a calculation to prove it because it would require a very thorough definition in the first place, which could be taken as a sufficient answer in its own right. The answer is of course 42.

On another note, at "17 hours ago" and no response I guess they are still writing trying to work it out, or gave up, if they are anything like me and my random blurts

Re: The Grayness of the Origin of Life

#72
post #67
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And of course panspermia isn't new or my idea particularly, but what bugs me is instead of saying there needs to be more evidence, it should be the default assumption. Our environment is just not representative of most of the universe even if you ignore non-baryonic dark matter. One might dismiss this by invoking the anthropic principle (a blunt argument, sorry). Most of the universe is void, and planets with no su…

If panspermia is true, I think it’s most likely life evolved on a planet orbiting a star. It just seems to me that the energy availability and chances of having liquid water are more conducive. That planet then was destroyed or fragments broken off, scattering life enriched matter into star forming nebulae. This seeded more planets, which then broke up scattering more life enriched matter. After several cycles of thi…

>It just seems to me that the energy availability and chances of having liquid water are more conducive.

It seems to me the very concept of a "habitable zone" tends to imply liquid water on the surface of a planet is implausible/rare. There's a whole bunch of additional requirements besides distance and temperature, which some people think makes life in red dwarf systems doubtful, and even looking at earth's history, surface dwelling life seems precarious with all the extinction events.

And we have Enceladus as an example of the alternative. There must be orders of magnitude more bodies like this, with undersea oceans and some internal warmth, than bodies with surface conditions conducive to life. Perhaps life needs an environment like earth to develop fully, but if 99.x% of the potential habitat for the most basic life is indifferent to our particular conditions, then it seems to me overwhelmingly likely that's where it started.

Re: The Grayness of the Origin of Life

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The heart of a cow (and any vertebrate) can beat on it's own. Each muscular cell of the heart beats, and they coordinate the beating when they are in contact. Also, there are a lot of neurons in the heart to synchronize the beating of the different parts of the heart. IIRC It can keep beating even without brain signals. It's not the ideal rate of beating, and there are other problems, but the heart somewhat beats on…

Yeah the heart can beat according to its internal pace maker and a CNC machine can move about and cut a work piece according to its internal program. We have no reason to believe that either is sentient. Maybe a thousand or so years ago when people did not fully understand that the brain is where consciousness takes place. Nowadays there is no excuse. Autonomy is not sentience. Your heart does not have feelings or a…

> I doubt a heart can learn but maybe it can.

That's a very interesting question! (Do we have here some biologist that can try it?)

The difference between an isolated organism and a part is sometimes no so clear. For example in Clonal Colony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clonal_colony Is each trunk of Pando a different organism? Why not each branch? (Plants do very nasty things to other plants, but in slow motion. It's nice to see time lapses videos of plants "fighting".) Most examples of clonal colonies are plants, some of them have specialized members and some have identical members. If you prefer animals, one nice example is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_man_o%27_war

Re: The Grayness of the Origin of Life

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a negative consequence - If the line between life and non-life is blurry, that means there isn't a clear place for souls to fit in. If life can be completely explained as an emergent property of individual non-living parts, (ultimately, atoms aren't alive, even though they make up living things) then we can't tell whether souls exist in our universe or not. This isn't a big deal for science, but it's a moral…

I am hesitant to agree that it's a moral victory - maybe it's more of a victory about metaphysics? (also, what is a metaphysical victory? :))

a metaphysical victory for atheists who consumes the concept of soul would be that the concept ceases, which is equivalent to its physical death in the competing theist's view, and completely unconsequential to the atheist, which only proves that atheism is at least not that bad.

Re: The Grayness of the Origin of Life

#75
post #3

A nice article. It seems likely that we will never really know how life started. It is still very interesting to research this subject, because it might help us to learn more about the possibility of life on other planets.

I think in our lifetimes, we'll know enough about the preconditions for abiogenesis to perform experiments replicating portions of the process in vitro.

We know that it has been a very, very slow process and we don't really know where and under which conditions it happened.

I hope that you are right, that we might be able to replicate portions of it. It might help us understand something more about what we call life. It might also help us understanding alternative forms of life that might exist on other planets.

Re: The Grayness of the Origin of Life

#76
post #25

I'm personally convinced at this point that most everyday distinctions between living and dead are arbitrary human categorizations. Even a "dead body" is teaming with life. As far as "inanimate matter" is concerned, all matter is ultimately part of a plethora of various different cycles and processes of transformation and recapitulation... even if something temporarily looks like it's static to us and our meager litt…

Is there a consequence of your thinking? I don’t think it’s arbitrary. There’s a clear distinction between say a rock and a cell, even if you view the rock on geological timescales and the cell on biological timescales. I don’t think it’s arbitrary or even surprising that humans view things from our own vantage point in reality.

I guess mean arbitrary in the sense that being born as a human is kinda arbitrary, in the sense that individual human perspectives themselves are arbitrary amongst the vast range of possible ways to experience or perceive, both human and beyond human.

Well and also in the sense that it takes some pretty arbitrary decisions to distinguish living from nonliving.

I don't mean that these distinctions are useless or unimportant, just that for the most part they may not be all that fundamental... You end up drawing lines in the sand.

For example, are you gonna exclude viruses from the tree of life? Why? Because viruses don't have any known local macroscopic motility? Because they rely too heavily on their environment ("host") to reproduce? Those are summaries of the arguments I've heard against viruses being alive, and imo they're pretty arbitrary.

On the other hand, viruses reproduce and are subject to selective pressures, as are most phenomena with a lifecycle and an external environment. So then if you include viruses are you gonna include RNA? What about reactions, e.g. combustion? Are these alive? Well then and what about consumer product/producer systems? Don't they have lifecycles of their own? Some feedback loops that cause selective pressures? Environments to survive and reproduce in?

It's fuzzy.

A lot of rational, materialistic categorizations of living vs unliving look to me like hunches based on assumptions about motility or consciousness, and might as well be reframed as "does it move?" or "can I communicate with it?" or "does it see me?"

Lynn Margulis and Dorion Sagan wrote a nice essay called "the uncut self" that's really great and related to this in my view. It's all about where the tendency to draw boundaries around "individual selves" when looking at living systems, boundaries that might not be so fixed or obvious when you look carefully.

Re: The Grayness of the Origin of Life

#77
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we know that the heart has no experience? What level of complexity is required for experience?

Experience is not a function of a simple "level of complexity" but of structure with specific function. The idea that you reach a certain level of complexity and just get sentience as an incidental side effect of the complexity is a fallacy for multiple reasons. Sentience results from structures specifically crafted to create sentience. In the 21st century as opposed to the 12th century we know for sure that the stru…

Someone should beat the shit out of you for the garbage you said to me. Dang, why did you let this creepy fuck back on here? You permabanned my old account for way way less.

Re: The Grayness of the Origin of Life

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can know an origin of some life, but never the origin of our own life. It's simply not testable, and without tests it's not science.

But to say that we could find several plausible theories and not know _something_ of value is teetering on Last Thursdayism.

If I may use a programming analogy, the process described is akin to NPC agents in a browser based MMORPG Rowhammering a bunch of random bits into some exposed ArrayBuffer until a Counter div appears on the page, then claiming they have some deeper understanding of the origins of life in their universe.

Do they have a deeper understanding? Perhaps. Have they come anywhere near the "origin of life"? Nope.

Re: The Grayness of the Origin of Life

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can know an origin of some life, but never the origin of our own life. It's simply not testable, and without tests it's not science.

That's not how science works. You can't ever test anything in the past, so by your logic nothing in the past can be considered scientific. By your logic, plate tectonics can't explain the past movement of continents. Which is, of course, wrong. We can absolutely test aspects of a theory, verify its general validity, see that it best correlates with past evidence, and therefore infer past causes. Nothing of that is un…

If all we had was observations of modern day plate tectonics it would be foolish to back-propagate the same motions billions of years in reverse and claim ones methods were "scientific".

Luckily, we have things like fossil records to justify such conclusions. They provide the second point with which we can "fit a curve" when exploring history.

With this "origin of life" stuff, we don't have that second point of confirmation. We think up a bizarre process, execute it, and see that it produced some molecules that we see in modern day life. We then have the gall to say that we've discovered "the origins of life"? Yeah right... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27974369

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