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For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

blog.perrysun.com

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Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#461

The problem isn't Safari as much, which pioneered HTML5, and is the most power-efficient browser on any platform I've seen. The problem is web devs. Web developers have increasingly the attitude of "I don't want to learn how to make apps, I want to use HTML/CSS/JS for all apps I make", and this plays directly into Google's interests, which benefits from everything being web, because it has its tentacles all over the…

I'm kind of taking the bait in your message. but just saying things like:

> let's be honest, web devs are among the least educated, least sophisticated, most entitled

is just plain wrong and unnecessarily outrageous.

There is a huge pool of front-end web developers when compared to other "specializations" and many person coming to it from other professions, so I guess you could easily have a poor experience with some if you're unlucky, yet I both work with JS-people and C++-people and I cannot really say that one is less "educated" or even less "sophisticated" (whatever that means) than the other.

For sure, front-end devs are often less interested by the lower level technical details of a platform but they know how to code a maintainable and readable application with a complex state and a complex often-changing business logic and are even for the most part not afraid to learn another language, e.g. for personal projects: in my close colleagues some worked with elixir, another switched to go, I enjoy C++ and Rust... At least in the bigger companies I worked with, JS and C++ devs also went to the same schools, they just had different interests in programming.

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As for the "this plays directly into Google's interests" part, sure, I agree with that sentence.

But even considering this, I and most people I know would agree that launching a web application leads to much less friction than running a native app: nothing to install/uninstall, easy interoperability with other websites, easy to share a given page with others, easy to copy/paste anything, automatic plugin support and it's also easier to modify and update features through user scripts...

I know this is not the more popular opinion here but I personally am happy for this continued push towards the web platform, even if does not come from pure intentions.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#462
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we’re talking about mobile browsers, Mozilla functionally doesn’t exist. That space is just Safari vs. Chrome(ium). And Apple are not obliged to have 100% feature parity with Chrome.

Why do you say that? Firefox on Mobile exists, and I was under the impression that on Android, it uses its own rendering engine.

It exists, but its market share is negligible. According to StatCounter, Firefox has a market share of 0.5% on mobile: https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/mobile/world...

Even on desktop, Firefox is sliding towards irrelevancy, with just 7% market share.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#463
I say this every time a post like this comes up...

Google is the web. Chrome is the web. It shouldn't be true, but it is.... almost.

Safari, or more specifically Apple's requirement that all web rendering on iOS be done using WebKit, is THE ONLY thing standing in the way of Chrome's market share being functionally 100%.

If you care about the web, and one would presume that web developers would care deeply about the web, Safari ought to be your best friend, regardless of which of Google's "standards" it doesn't implement.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#464
> The reason for Apple’s self-imposed limitations on PWA-related web APIs? They’ll tell you they’re for user privacy reasons, which may be valid in certain cases.

> But most of us know the dominant reason is because fully-capable PWAs would compete against the iOS App Store – robbing Apple of 30% cut in revenue it rakes in when an app is purchased, or an in-app purchase is executed.

The rest of us don't know this. Maybe the author can enlighten.

Honestly, my sense is that app stores have become mechanisms for delivering free content. Few pay for software anymore. I don't imagine Apple is really standing to lose much if a few apps went PWA.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, exactly. Apple’s parochial interests are in opposition to the web being useful, Google’s are aligned with the web being useful.

No. Google's are aligned with the web being useful to Google . This is not the same as "the web being useful". And these days more often than not Mozilla (which has no stakes in either apps or online advertisement) sides with Apple: https://webapicontroversy.com

I don't buy Mozilla's/Apple's concerns for those APIs.

Sure if seems sketch to access USB from the web, but as a user if I'm trying to achieve something and I can't do it on the web, I'll end up installing a native app which has way more access to my system.

As a developer I would much rather be able to just deploy cool things on the web instead of having to package up native apps for every platform just to do things like read/write NFC tags, or send notifications to users who want them.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#466
post #463

I say this every time a post like this comes up... Google is the web. Chrome is the web. It shouldn't be true, but it is.... almost. Safari, or more specifically Apple's requirement that all web rendering on iOS be done using WebKit, is THE ONLY thing standing in the way of Chrome's market share being functionally 100%. If you care about the web, and one would presume that web developers would care deeply about the w…

Firefox is my best friend ...

If Apple cared as much as they say about privacy, they should install Firefox as a default not because Safari has privacy issues but because then Firefox's market share can grow, which is good for privacy.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#467

The problem isn't Safari as much, which pioneered HTML5, and is the most power-efficient browser on any platform I've seen. The problem is web devs. Web developers have increasingly the attitude of "I don't want to learn how to make apps, I want to use HTML/CSS/JS for all apps I make", and this plays directly into Google's interests, which benefits from everything being web, because it has its tentacles all over the…

I think there are a few reasons for this:

(1) Web dev is easier and more productive to learn incrementally than just about anything else - I personally learned how to do HTML and CSS long before I learned any other programming. That was the gateway that eventually led me into the CS field. A lot of others follow that path, but perhaps don't take it as far.

(2) Web dev is so ubiquitous and in such high demand that companies are willing to hire anyone who "knows enough to be dangerous" with this tech. That's actually a *good thing* IMO since it means a lot of people are getting good jobs with the chance to learn and grow into a career, instead of being stuck in worse jobs. But it does reinforce point 1 and lead to web devs skewing towards junior devs and away from formal CS education.

(3) Hackers are heroes in our culture. The agile, lean startup, MVP, indie hacker, low-code, etc. trends are all movements celebrating people who can just hack shit together that works right now as being fundamentally superior to artful engineering that builds elegant things at high cost and requiring much more time.

(4) General cultural trend toward "influence" as a career driver. There's almost nothing that opens doors for people today like having a popular blog or YouTube channel does, and peddling simple angry click-bait rants to the masses is an easier path to build a following than careful and considerate thought leadership.

All of these combine to create the mass of "whiny web devs" that you're complaining about.

Finally, to be fair, web dev is such a vast field encompassing so many people, I think you'd be surprised how many people working in web development (including myself, for example), share your exhaustion with the hipster-script-kiddies who think that building things just for Chrome is fine, that framework churn is exciting, that electron is just as better than native, etc. So I think your criticism is on point and justified, just be mindful that you're painting with a very broad brush and there are loads of web developers who aren't on this whiny "chrome is the only computing platform" bandwagon.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was just fighting Safari few days ago and I completely agree. Noticed that "vw" and "vh" CSS3 units dont work in it like they do in other browsers. Upon digging, found a medium article explaining it - but as I was in safari, the article's code snippets or images wouldn't load properly. As much as I got a bit hyped to try using safari after WWDC - I just can't. It's so discombobulated regarding web standards that I wo…

The problem also is web developers themselves, with the author of this piece and the Redditor they quote included. Whatever Medium's needs are for putting images and the written word on the screen were satisfied a decade+ ago. The fact that that Medium article doesn't work is a consequence of how web developers have normalized the practice of passing the blame for their failures and lack of competence on to the brows…

> Whatever Medium's needs are for putting images and the written word on the screen were satisfied a decade+ ago. The fact that that Medium article doesn't work is a consequence of how web developers have normalized the practice of passing the blame for their failures and lack of competence on to the browsers and browser makers by extension.

The problem of displaying images and text on the web was solved in the first [EDIT: an early] HTML spec in the mid 90s. Yet web sites still manage to screw it up and make it unnecessarily dependent on JavaScript. I always thought the web would be a lot more pleasant if web "developers" would just stop programming for a bit and learn a little HTML.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and those all suck up my RAM. Color me nonplussed that WebKit doesn't follow in Chromium's footsteps.

The criticism was that "no one uses WebRTC", not that WebRTC was inefficient. Clearly millions of people do use it, so you aren't refuting the point in any way. Perhaps if Apple had supported WebRTC earlier their engineers could have influenced the way it works to make it better. That's the main problem with ignoring standards in an org the size of Apple - you don't get to contribute to them. I don't mind that Safari…

Millions of developers are not using WebRTC. Not sure how you read my post, but clearly you wanted to make your own spin.

Are millions of developers using Widevine, too? What kind of stupid argument is that?

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