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For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

blog.perrysun.com

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Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea of IE being purely an "outdated" browser seems to be one perpetuated by young devs reading & misunderstanding old blogposts. That’s certainly not true: it was indeed outdated for much of its life. Yes, through IE6, it did things differently; beyond that point, though, it simply fell behind. It stopped evolving in any meaningful way—with the possible exception of tabs being introduced in IE7–while other bro…

I have been building websites since some time last century. I was there during the first browser wars. I was there for the first versions of those browsers! And I agree almost entirely with the complaints throughout this discussion about how outdated IE became and how lacking Safari now is. It's true that IE6 took more flak than it really deserved because people forget how good it was for the time when it first becam…

> It's true that IE6 took more flak than it really deserved because people forget how good it was for the time when it first became available.

This makes the same mistake as many sibling commenters here in that it equates "new features" with "good".

You're making out that IE6 didn't deserve flak in the early days because it had innovative new (non-standard, incompatible) features. You're making out that this was somehow a good thing. It wasn't. This was the cause of IE6 problems.

The general argument in comments is that IE5.5 / IE6 ~circa 2000-2004 was not problematic; that it only became problematic later due to the lack of updates or new features. In fact, the problems were present from the start: in 2004 developers were developing exclusively for IE6, putting "works in IE" badges at the bottom of their pages and excluding all Opera & Firebird users.

This was then exacerbated by the lack of updates to IE, but again–the reason this became more problematic wasn't because IE wasn't updated, it's because IE was different in the first place. In ways that are unlike Safari today.

> you can't seriously claim that Safari isn't falling far behind in the same way today

I can seriously claim it because it's fundamentally different: Safari is falling behind in a standards-compliant, consistent, detectable and progressively-enhanceable way. IE6 differed radically from specifications when released, and then proceeded to fall behind in fixing this divergence.

What I'm pointing out is that IE6 falling behind would not have been a massive problem if it hadn't first diverged radically from agreed compatibility with other browsers.

The box-model is the biggest example: specifying any padding AT ALL in CSS in 2005 meant you were making a choice between showing the specified padding correctly in IE, or in every other browser. Without brittle hacks discovered by tireless volunteers, there was no way around this: the same property did radically different things in IE vs others.

In 2021, if Safari doesn't support a feature, it doesn't support it: the property simply does nothing (neither useful nor harmful). Yes, maybe there are exceptions for edge-case bugs but these are fixed in patch releases, since (unlike IE6's different "features"), they're actually considered bugs by Apple.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes zero business sense for small-medium companies to make separate android and IOS apps. That's man hours that will be spent on a specific platform and its app store, instead of on improving the core product. PWAs are here to stay.

Except 0% of customers understand how PWAs work on mobile devices, 10% of webdevs understand how to make actually performant Apps, and 100% of execs think that using a PWA means their desktop site should be their mobile app (without realizing that, often times, your mobile UX likely has a vastly different context.)

> using a PWA means their desktop site should be their mobile app

There's tons of mobile apps that never needed to be anything other than desktop sites honestly. Facebook, actually, is a perfect example.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you implying Mozilla Firefox cares less about the user than Apple? Why not let Mozilla have it's browser on iOS? It's not about the user, it's about having an iron chokehold on the developers and we are too cool aid drunk to call it out.

Mozilla is mostly funded by Google.

And that's irrelevant, Mozilla's decision-making is quite independent of Google's.

Firefox on Android is an excellent browser. Firefox on iOS could be the same if Apple let go of its chokehold.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#414
post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mention a simple site with HTML and CSS. That is actually quite funny in a discussion about Safari as CSS is one of the areas that Safari is behind other browsers. A site with those frameworks would very likely work better in Safari than one without them (but yes I dislike them too which is one of the reasons I dislike Safari). https://caniuse.com/

You claim Safari is so behind in CSS that it's "quite funny" to discuss making a simple HTML and CSS site in it. And you didn't bother to name even one important missing CSS feature. Very low effort. If you want to be taken seriously, bring some facts and examples next time, not just generic internet flamebait.

> web devs are among the least educated, least sophisticated, most entitled and most whiny bunch there is

Of course, you're not spitting out generic flamebait with no backing evidence. That would be very low effort.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also a PWA can’t compete in quality with a proper native app, should a competitor ever build one you’re toast. The question just revolves around how integral an app is to the business. Online banking probably requires an app. A restaurant that offers online ordering probably does not. A video game requires an app. An online encyclopedia does not.

I think this is wild conjecture. Users don't care as much as you think about "native performance", they care about features and price. PWAs can be iterated faster than native apps, and they circumvent the app store tax. They also let the business control the onboarding and sales funnel vs text only app storefronts filled with garbage.

Users care about 'Native experience' when they actually want to use the app. There's good reason why companies like Starbucks or IG or your Email app are not PWAs.

The word users tend to have for non-native apps isn't about performance or such, it's about UX.

That word is 'shit'.

Nearly every single PWA developer thinks about how brilliant it is that they can write for two platforms at once but forgets that it means that you ALSO have to do every single last bit of legwork that Apple and Google did for you to give a good, correct-feeling UX on mobile and that the more you do the more you pay that performance cost and build yourself a tech debt prison. And don't get me started on the nightmare that is Ionic and Angular.

PWAs absolutely have their place: Apps that you might want to use...sometimes.. with notifications. That's it. Nothing more makes any sense.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that isn't the case. At all. IE wasn't difficult because it was behind the times; it was difficult because it was deliberately different. The 2nd pillar of Microsoft's infamous Embrace, Extend, Extinguish strategy ensured incompatibility, which doubled developer efforts. The idea of IE being purely an "outdated" browser seems to be one perpetuated by young devs reading & misunderstanding old blogposts. The narrat…

> The idea of IE being purely an "outdated" browser seems to be one perpetuated by young devs reading & misunderstanding old blogposts. That’s certainly not true: it was indeed outdated for much of its life. Yes, through IE6, it did things differently; beyond that point, though, it simply fell behind. It stopped evolving in any meaningful way—with the possible exception of tabs being introduced in IE7–while other bro…

> That’s certainly not true: it was indeed outdated for much of its life.

I left a more substantive comment deeper in this thread, but just want to correct this small point: we're not disagreeing, you've misread the line you quoted. Note the qualifier "purely". I'm not saying it wasn't outdated, I'm just saying the fact it was outdated wasn't the sole cause of problems.

(i.e. I'm saying that being outdated doesn't cause problems: being both outdated AND deliberately incompatible does. Safari is only outdated)

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that isn't the case. At all. IE wasn't difficult because it was behind the times; it was difficult because it was deliberately different. The 2nd pillar of Microsoft's infamous Embrace, Extend, Extinguish strategy ensured incompatibility, which doubled developer efforts. The idea of IE being purely an "outdated" browser seems to be one perpetuated by young devs reading & misunderstanding old blogposts. The narrat…

> The idea of IE being purely an "outdated" browser seems to be one perpetuated by young devs reading & misunderstanding old blogposts. That’s certainly not true: it was indeed outdated for much of its life. Yes, through IE6, it did things differently; beyond that point, though, it simply fell behind. It stopped evolving in any meaningful way—with the possible exception of tabs being introduced in IE7–while other bro…

You’re holding on too tight to an argument for the sake of analogy. It’s cute and evocative but it’s blinding you to the bigger picture.

The issues with Google monopolising the direction of standards development are the major issue facing browsers, users and developers on the web, today.

I get that you’re disappointed Safari doesn’t support the same stuff, the same way as Chrome. Tough. You’re attempting to develop and deploy to a platform with backwards comparability baked into its design and development process. If you want to use the new shiny, do so, but accept what you’re doing carries the risks it has and work that into your strategy. You can hope Safari will implement what you want, but unless you’re contributing to Webkit, or on a W3C committee, you don’t have much skin in that game.

As a web developer you should be considering the needs of your users first. Some of your users could be on Lynx, on that browser which comes with Haiku, on a shitty phone from 8 years ago. THAT’s the web.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#418
post #350
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re talking as if the W3C or even Mozilla don’t exist. This isn’t an Apple vs Google thing. This is an Apple vs web standards thing. That’s why Safari is outdated for developers.

If we’re talking about mobile browsers, Mozilla functionally doesn’t exist. That space is just Safari vs. Chrome(ium). And Apple are not obliged to have 100% feature parity with Chrome.

Why do you say that? Firefox on Mobile exists, and I was under the impression that on Android, it uses its own rendering engine.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#419

The problem isn't Safari as much, which pioneered HTML5, and is the most power-efficient browser on any platform I've seen. The problem is web devs. Web developers have increasingly the attitude of "I don't want to learn how to make apps, I want to use HTML/CSS/JS for all apps I make", and this plays directly into Google's interests, which benefits from everything being web, because it has its tentacles all over the…

In poor defence of web devs; often they are passed nonsensical designs & requirements on shoestring time budgets. Most would like not to do horror shows, but are forced by industry conditions. Now-days web devs are very rarely the ones making decisions beyond "how do we achieve this render within too little days?". Don't blame the builders when the architects won't acknowledge the laws of physics.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#420
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not wrong, there's real upsides to push notifications. For example the thing I love about the iWatch is how it lets me never check my phone because anything relevent is pushed to the watch. But I think you are really underselling the downsides of push notifications. They are easily the most heavily abused feature of the modern web anywhere they exist. If every single app responsibly used push notifications the…

I don't feel like that at all because on all of my devices, notifications are opt-in. I get notifications for services I want to receive notifications from (mostly IM). The exception to this are services which trick you into accepting their notifications because they are beneficial to the experience while using them (ride hailing and delivery apps), and then use the same channels to spam you with marketing (Uber, ...…

> I don't feel like that at all because on all of my devices, notifications are opt-in. I get notifications for services I use (mostly IM).

They aren't granular though, you either opt in to all or you get none. This is particularly annoying when you're using something like LetGo or OfferUp, because you basically need to opt in to receive messages from people interested in buying your second-hand stuff. But once you do, they take the opportunity to spam you with engagement boosting ads querying you if you have anything you want to list or telling you "we've selected these sales for you."

It's an extremely unpleasant design pattern for anyone who values their own time and attention.

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