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Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

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Re: Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

#141

Post by chromanoid »

gota wrote: post #48
emtel wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not just mammals. I’ve always been astounded that spiders know how to spin webs. Their mothers don’t teach them how!

Or this, which is mind-blowing: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/dragonfly-undertak... Insects that have large migration patterns - all of the individuals die before coming back to the initial spot; only their descendants continue the cycle. How?!

Maybe epigenetics? I mean blank slate theory is off the table anyway...

In addition think about how bees can tell harvest locations to each other by dancing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waggle_dance This dance is probably also something those bees know before being born.

Re: Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

#142

Post by eru »

mandelken wrote: post #131
eru wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Interestingly, the EGG hypothesis postulates that the constraining factor is not pelvis size, but rather that neonates consume so much energy that we give birth just before a women's metabolic limits would otherwise be overrun (leading to both maternal and infant death). Based on this, the increased energy demands of our larger brains mean that we have to sacrifice neonatal motor skills or drastically improve the m…

Perhaps it’s more than just calories or energy intake, but as well doing the breathing, immuno responses, digesting, filtering blood etc. for both mother and baby?

Maybe. But now we are just speculating.

Re: Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

#143

Post by eru »

watwut wrote: post #139
jacinda wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is commonly attributed to the fact that human babies have immature brains that cannot mature due to birth canal constraints, which is constrained by pelvis size which is constrained by the need to walk upright Interestingly, the EGG hypothesis postulates that the constraining factor is not pelvis size, but rather that neonates consume so much energy that we give birth just before a women's metabolic limits wou…

> constraining factor is not pelvis size I kind of doubt that, because if baby is after term, the risk is supposed to be childbirth itself being too dangerous. And they induce birth if the baby is too big too. Large baby is considered a risk on itself.

Yes. And for even larger babies, c-sections are common.

Re: Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

#144

Post by chromanoid »

Tycho wrote: post #121

Maybe telepathy/ESP is real, it’s just that we lose it soon after birth, or in early childhood, like eidetic memory. Or perhaps some people retain it longer - or some animals, hence all the mythical beasts.

Yeah, this is much more probable than a mechanism to replay genetically/biochemically encoded activation patterns that help survival after birth.

Re: Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

#145

Post by agent008t »

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #138
agent008t wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a child puts on 100% bone and muscle?

No, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?

I was just pointing out that a baby does not gain weight faster than it ever will again in its life, in absolute terms. That's all. Not sure why I got the downvotes and no-true-scotsman arguments in return.

Re: Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

#146

Post by chromanoid »

Geee wrote: post #88

Is it possible that there's some kind of neural transfer from the mother's brain during pregnancy? I've been wondering if there is or if it's all genetic. Evolutionary it would be very interesting if consciousness wasn't genetic, but transferred during pregnancy.

Epigenetics are one way. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6127768/

Re: Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

#147

Post by octopoc »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #113
taneq wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence me giving a range of 6-9 months. My niece was walking not long after 9 months, it's rare but not unheard of. A newborn baby simply wouldn't have the physical strength or rigidity, though.

Earliest I've seen was 9/10 months, that kid looked so strange to me, they could barely hold their head up as they tottered around like a drunk. I wonder if the parents promoted early walking?

People do that successfully, the problem is that if babies skip the crawling phase then it may cause learning disabilities among other things. Which is fascinating in the context of this conversation. The order in which things are learned can be very critical!

Re: Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

#149

Post by GreeningRun »

chrisseaton wrote: post #26
teruakohatu wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are these innate patterns of activity priming mammalian brains in a similar way? A newborn foal can stand within 55 minutes of being born and can walk or run within 90 minutes. That is crazy fast training speed. Is it training initialization or is it a form of transfer learning? Most human babies take 9-18 months to walk, and this is commonly attributed to the fact that human babies have immature brains that cannot…

> Most human babies take 9-18 months to walk, and this is commonly attributed to the fact that human babies have immature brains Have you ever seen a new-born baby's legs? They aren't even remotely strong enough to walk, no matter what the brain tells them. It takes those months to develop leg muscles. New-borns don't have them. It's absolutely not restricted by the brain size.

If I follow your reasoning on the leg muscles, how to deal with the grasping reflex? That's all the weight on just some arm muscles...

Re: Mammals dream about the world they are about to experience before they are born

#150

Post by patentatt »

the_af wrote: post #75
afavour wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps only partially related to what you're saying but human babies are born with some innate reflexes: https://www.stanfordchildrens.org/en/topic/default?id=newbor... Perhaps the most relevant to this discussion is the "stepping" reflex. It isn't really stepping but if placed in a standing-like position babies will often raise one foot, put it down, then the other. The most interesting part to me is that this refl…

Also the grasping reflex: if you place your finger in the palm of a newborn's hand, she will grasp it. It works almost without fail with any newborn baby. After a few months it completely disappears: grasping is no longer a reflex but a voluntary act, and as often as not she won't be inclined to do it. I read that both failure to demonstrate these reflexes while newborn, as well as continued existence past a few mont…

And it’s usually an incredibly strong grip! Seems like it could definitely be used to grab onto a monkey mother’s back, never thought about that!
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