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For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

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Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#61

Post by jolux »

afavour wrote: post #34
jolux wrote: post #22

Apple has its own opinions about what web standards it should implement. It’s as simple as that. Google has been extremely successful in convincing developers that browsers that don’t behave like Chrome are behaving wrong. Don’t get me wrong, I wish Safari had more features, fewer bugs, and an evergreen release cycle. It’s clear Apple do not see themselves as competing with Chrome, largely because of iOS, and I do wa…

You’re talking as if the W3C or even Mozilla don’t exist. This isn’t an Apple vs Google thing. This is an Apple vs web standards thing. That’s why Safari is outdated for developers.

For the most part W3C is where standards go when they’re finished (often long after developers expect them to be available everywhere, especially these days). WebUSB for example is currently a draft, not a standard. Many of these complaints are about technologies that Chrome implements that have yet to be fully standardized.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#62

Post by halostatue »

afavour wrote: post #48
halostatue wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple _does_ put effort into Safari. It’s just not on the parts that you and other developers want it to be on. It’s definitely on the parts that I (as a user) want it to be on (security, privacy, and battery life in roughly that order). It is unlikely that a court will be able to force Apple to expose OS APIs that would allow for the insecurity of WebUSB or WebMIDI on iOS, even if they do force other engines. And th…

You’re talking as if it’s an either/or situation. For a company the size of Apple it definitely isn’t. They could fix long-standing bugs, implement web standards others have had for years and improve security, privacy and battery life. They just don’t.

Not necessarily. There are “web standards” pushed by Google that are inherently inimical to increased privacy and cannot be implemented with sufficient security for a billion devices. I have to use Chrome and Chromium-based browsers for a lot of what I do, and the very first thing I do when I have to set it up or configure a new profile is _disable_ crap like:

- Web USB - Web MIDI - Web HID - Web Push - Web Motion Sensors - Site protocol handlers - Web Serial Ports - Web local file editing - Payment handlers - VR - Attention

That is, I make it so that sites aren’t even allowed to ASK me for those permissions. I know that a regular did a Web MIDI site recently that is sort of neat, but the protocol is essentially impossible to secure.

Each and every single one of those things provides additional security risk, fingerprinting opportunities, and privacy leaks BY DESIGN, and I can’t ever see turning them on.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#63

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

foxes wrote: post #43
tmpz22 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reddit is a pretty low bar Reddit is a multi billion dollar product and one of the most trafficked sites on the internet.

Why do they continue to degrade the mobile/desktop default web experience? Promoting the app is one thing, but then actively harming the user experience? Do most people not care? Insane either way. The day old.reddit dies Ill blacklist the site permanently.

Gordon Geckos are running the show.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#64

Post by vorador »

afavour wrote: post #50
vorador wrote: post #19

If you look at the features that Apple lags on adding support for, usually it's either because: 1. they can be abused (PWAs) 2. are complex to implement (WebRTC – for the longest time the recommendation in the WebRTC community if you wanted to build a C++ app was to bundle a good chunk of Chrome's libraries) 3. or could be bad for battery (web workers) So yeah, it makes some developers' jobs harder but generally ther…

In what way can PWAs be abused?

Sorry, I'm using the OPs parlance here – by PWA I think he means "JS apps that use advanced browser APIs".

The typical concern is that a phisher will use to make a page that looks like Google's sign-in page and display it in fullscreen mode. This would let them collect credentials while mirroring the input in a real form that'd be filled in the background.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#65

Post by diebeforei485 »

slivanes wrote: post #38
vorador wrote: post #19

If you look at the features that Apple lags on adding support for, usually it's either because: 1. they can be abused (PWAs) 2. are complex to implement (WebRTC – for the longest time the recommendation in the WebRTC community if you wanted to build a C++ app was to bundle a good chunk of Chrome's libraries) 3. or could be bad for battery (web workers) So yeah, it makes some developers' jobs harder but generally ther…

Actually, pretty sure it's only one reason, money. If they made Safari on iOS actually good (re: PWA notification support), it would burn into their App store profits.

What sort of apps are in the intersection of being performant enough to be written in JavaScript and also generate lots of in-app purchase revenue (which is typically recurring revenue)? Certainly not most games, which are the biggest money-spinners, and also not pro camera apps or video editing apps.

Video streaming apps (eg. Netflix / YouTube Premium) come to mind, but they don't rely too much on in app purchase I think. That leaves news apps like the New York Times which need notifications to deliver breaking stories, and perhaps dating apps with messaging/photo features.

Thing is, for every New York Times, there are tons of "news" clickbait content farm websites out there, and I certainly don't need to elaborate on the risks of "free-for-all" dating apps with no enforced guidelines.

I'd much rather Apple end the anti-steering rules where apps are not being allowed to tell people that they can subscribe on the website. Congress is working on this[1].

1. https://stratechery.com/2021/the-cicilline-salvo/

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#66

Post by teruakohatu »

halostatue wrote: post #32
teruakohatu wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History is just repeating itself. If you capture enough browser market share, there is no incentive improve handling of web content that does not materially help the bottom line. IE gave us wonderful features (XMLHTTPRequest) but as soon as MSFT found they had a monopoly, development stalled and the world got stuck with IE6, which lacked even basic features like PNG image alpha transparency. When/if a court orders Ap…

Apple _does_ put effort into Safari. It’s just not on the parts that you and other developers want it to be on. It’s definitely on the parts that I (as a user) want it to be on (security, privacy, and battery life in roughly that order). It is unlikely that a court will be able to force Apple to expose OS APIs that would allow for the insecurity of WebUSB or WebMIDI on iOS, even if they do force other engines. And th…

> Apple _does_ put effort into Safari.

I did not say they did not. What I said was...

> that does not materially help the bottom line.

Security, privacy, and battery life sell phones. Better PWA and WebRTC would cost them money because those modern Web technologies compete with the App Store.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#68

Post by throwaway140820 »

halostatue wrote: post #32
teruakohatu wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History is just repeating itself. If you capture enough browser market share, there is no incentive improve handling of web content that does not materially help the bottom line. IE gave us wonderful features (XMLHTTPRequest) but as soon as MSFT found they had a monopoly, development stalled and the world got stuck with IE6, which lacked even basic features like PNG image alpha transparency. When/if a court orders Ap…

Apple _does_ put effort into Safari. It’s just not on the parts that you and other developers want it to be on. It’s definitely on the parts that I (as a user) want it to be on (security, privacy, and battery life in roughly that order). It is unlikely that a court will be able to force Apple to expose OS APIs that would allow for the insecurity of WebUSB or WebMIDI on iOS, even if they do force other engines. And th…

Sure, let's have competition in the browsers on apple platforms then? Let the User choose what they want?

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#69

Post by vagrantJin »

jolux wrote: post #22

Apple has its own opinions about what web standards it should implement. It’s as simple as that. Google has been extremely successful in convincing developers that browsers that don’t behave like Chrome are behaving wrong. Don’t get me wrong, I wish Safari had more features, fewer bugs, and an evergreen release cycle. It’s clear Apple do not see themselves as competing with Chrome, largely because of iOS, and I do wa…

> Chrome explicitly do not care about other browsers, and think that the world would be a better place if Chrome were the only one.

They are gunning for monopoly. No shame in that. The chrome app is the biggest gateway to the internet globally and winning that war means complete dominance as the world moves towards web applications. Using the carrot rather than the stick.

But therein lies the rub. Safari is betting on being bundled with macOS/iOS. That's a cool few million users with nary a breath of effort. I can at least empathise with Apple. Why put in the effort like a schmuck selling fried chicken, chips and skateboards door to door when I can lay back and just collect the meatball bacon cheddar pizza rolls falling from the sky?

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#70

Post by throwaway140820 »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #15

I speak as a non-developer but as someone who makes their living with a computer: From my perspective, Apple's conservative attitude is a positive. There are all sorts of web techs that enable the possibility of increased tracking, of websites being generally malicious, of all sorts of things that I don't want. Historically Apple has been on my side and I will continue to appreciate that until demonstrated otherwise.

Are you implying Mozilla Firefox cares less about the user than Apple? Why not let Mozilla have it's browser on iOS? It's not about the user, it's about having an iron chokehold on the developers and we are too cool aid drunk to call it out.
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