For developers, Safari is crap and outdated • Hacker News Board

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#21

Post by fnord77 » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 4:27 AM UTC

dhosek wrote: post #7

Sniffnoy wrote: post #4

From how they're described here, PWAs sound like a phishing risk...?

A lot of the APIs that Safari doesn't support end up being attack vectors and/or useful tools for user fingerprinting. Personally, I use Safari as my browser on my Mac almost 100% of the time (the small fraction is because, thanks to T-Mobile, my Netflix DVD and streaming accounts have been separated and Netflix insists on sending a notification email if I log out and then log back in to the streaming account). On ra…

I'd drop chrome in an instant for safari, but I cannot find a decent adblocker for safari.

ublock origin discontinued support

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#22

Post by jolux » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 4:27 AM UTC

Apple has its own opinions about what web standards it should implement. It’s as simple as that. Google has been extremely successful in convincing developers that browsers that don’t behave like Chrome are behaving wrong.

Don’t get me wrong, I wish Safari had more features, fewer bugs, and an evergreen release cycle. It’s clear Apple do not see themselves as competing with Chrome, largely because of iOS, and I do want them to take it more seriously. But the people who write Chrome explicitly do not care about other browsers, and think that the world would be a better place if Chrome were the only one. Between that behavior and the whole AMP fiasco, I’m surprised so much of the blame gets thrown at Apple for destroying the web. Am I supposed to be writing PWAs now, or AMP pages? If Reddit can’t figure it out, how the fuck am I supposed to?

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#23

Post by spfzero » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 4:28 AM UTC

slindz wrote: post #5

MattGaiser wrote: post #3

People complain about Google Chrome eating the web, but it really does seem like everyone else either dislikes the web (Apple), is ambivalent (Microsoft), or plain doesn't seem to care much (Mozilla).

So true. I have this uneasy reliance on Chrome for supporting PWA's properly since Mozilla lost interest. It's a life/routine manager for people with horrible memories. Chrome stands alone in supporting web push notifications :S

The last thing I’d want is a web push notification. I don’t have a favorite browser, but if there were one which blocked pop-ups asking me to assent to notifications, it would be my new favorite.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#24

Post by busymom0 » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 4:29 AM UTC

A bigger issue which this site forgets to mention is the 7 day cap for local storage data after which the data is deleted unless the site haas been added to the Home Screen shortcut (the option for which has also been hidden in menus now without any API to present this easily):

> Apple in its Full Third-Party Cookie Blocking and More blog post announced changes to WebKit that erases all local storage data for a given site if the site is not used for seven days. Basically, you go on a vacation and the data is lost. This means that apps must necessarily keep the data on a server, or they risk losing it all because Apple thinks this equates to privacy. What it does is cripple not only client-side-only PWAs but all PWAs as a big appeal of such technology is for it to be an offline-first and you can’t really go offline-first if you don’t have offline data anymore. Apple is crippling the Web because all it cares about is their native app store and it doesn’t matter how they spin this shit in terms of privacy and security, all they are doing is hurting the web for profit.

Related discussion:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22686602

EDIT: What's up with the downvotes?

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#25

Post by LeoPanthera » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 4:29 AM UTC

fnord77 wrote: post #21

dhosek wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the APIs that Safari doesn't support end up being attack vectors and/or useful tools for user fingerprinting. Personally, I use Safari as my browser on my Mac almost 100% of the time (the small fraction is because, thanks to T-Mobile, my Netflix DVD and streaming accounts have been separated and Netflix insists on sending a notification email if I log out and then log back in to the streaming account). On ra…

I'd drop chrome in an instant for safari, but I cannot find a decent adblocker for safari. ublock origin discontinued support

AdGuard for Safari (available in the App Store for both macOS and iOS) is excellent and free.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#26

Post by Epskampie » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 4:29 AM UTC

diebeforei485 wrote: post #16

Yes, because we all want notifications and more things running in the background that can access to the device's ports. I take the points about not supporting CSS features and some of the other web standards, and the issues around Apple's 30% cut, and I'd add that some of Apple's censorship (eg. banning Parler for a while, asking Telegram and Tumblr to not allow access to certain content) is troubling, but I don't th…

Notifications can only be sent after you “install” a website as a PWA. Same for background stuff. Don’t want that? Just use it as a regular site.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#27

Post by teruakohatu » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 4:30 AM UTC

kouteiheika wrote: post #10

Speaking from personal experience as a developer (although YMMV) - this is totally true. And I'm not even talking about some newfangled APIs like WebUSB and such (I don't really care about those personally). Safari's handling of regular HTML + CSS is regularly broken compared to other browsers. (At least in my experience.) Open the site in Chromium. Yep it works. Open the site in Firefox. Yep it works. Open the site…

History is just repeating itself. If you capture enough browser market share, there is no incentive improve handling of web content that does not materially help the bottom line.

IE gave us wonderful features (XMLHTTPRequest) but as soon as MSFT found they had a monopoly, development stalled and the world got stuck with IE6, which lacked even basic features like PNG image alpha transparency.

When/if a court orders Apple to allow alternative web engines on iOS, and they start losing market share to Firefox, Chrome or Edge because they are including features that Safari does not, Apple will finally put some effort into Safari.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#28

Post by jolux » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 4:30 AM UTC

fnord77 wrote: post #21

dhosek wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the APIs that Safari doesn't support end up being attack vectors and/or useful tools for user fingerprinting. Personally, I use Safari as my browser on my Mac almost 100% of the time (the small fraction is because, thanks to T-Mobile, my Netflix DVD and streaming accounts have been separated and Netflix insists on sending a notification email if I log out and then log back in to the streaming account). On ra…

I'd drop chrome in an instant for safari, but I cannot find a decent adblocker for safari. ublock origin discontinued support

Apple deprecated the extension interface that Origin uses and has no plans to implement the needed APIs even though they now support WebExtensions.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#29

Post by rvz » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 4:31 AM UTC

Even so, Chrome is what the web developers will use to force users to run its APIs, experimental features and leave all other browsers partially working.

Chromium is used on the web, desktop and alternative browsers. For users there is no escape, Unless you want to use a browser that is has a suboptimal browsing experience (Firefox)

> Did you know that it’s possible today to create something for your browser that works like a native app on your device?

Nope. Not at all ready yet and good luck on iOS.

> We’ll see what happens.

Nothing is going to happen, Even after the anti-trust hearings.

Apple’s lawyers always find a way.

As for the web in general, well it just switched from one giant to another.

To Downvoters: So Chromium is NOT used on the web, desktop and on alternative browsers nor it is the most used browser and it is NOT the best supported browser?

Are you sure?

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#30

Post by robbedpeter » Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 4:32 AM UTC

jolux wrote: post #22

Apple has its own opinions about what web standards it should implement. It’s as simple as that. Google has been extremely successful in convincing developers that browsers that don’t behave like Chrome are behaving wrong. Don’t get me wrong, I wish Safari had more features, fewer bugs, and an evergreen release cycle. It’s clear Apple do not see themselves as competing with Chrome, largely because of iOS, and I do wa…

Reddit is a pretty low bar. I don't think they care much about the site except to make it objectively worse than the app at every convenient opportunity.