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Citizen pays New Yorkers to livestream crime scenes

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Re: Citizen pays New Yorkers to livestream crime scenes

#31

Post by Shmebulock »

cronix wrote: post #8
MattGaiser wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Citizen break regulations in some way? I thought that filming crime and police was solidly legal.

> I thought that filming crime and police was solidly legal. Filming anything from a public space (street, sidewalk, etc) is legal, even if it's of a private space that is visible from public space. For example, if I'm on a public sidewalk next to your private residence, and you have the blinds open walking around naked - you have no reasonable expectation of privacy and can be filmed even though you're on your priva…

Is this generally how it works in most countries?

Re: Citizen pays New Yorkers to livestream crime scenes

#32

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

danpalmer wrote: post #29
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put even a slightly finer point on it -- isn't this, in a sense, journalism without a filter? Video can lie, but it's probably a bit harder to make a live streamed video lie than an article that recapitulates the content of such a stream. One thing I do seem to see over and over is a pattern where journalists are a little annoyed when companies encroach on the role of journalists but do so for less money. I'm sure…

> One thing I do seem to see over and over is a pattern where journalists are a little annoyed when companies encroach on the role of journalists but do so for less money. While there will be some bias from being challenged, I think there's also plenty of good reasons for journalists to challenge these sorts of companies. Journalism is a profession and brings with it a lot of ethical considerations. Teaching of journ…

I do understand that journalists aspire to ethical behavior in aggregate. What's ultimately not entirely clear to me is whether that aspiration is generally met to the degree that the profession is materially better at truth-telling than any other. I sure hope so. Then again, you can often read reporting on the same subject by journalists at CNN and Fox News, and the one inescapable conclusion is that someone is not telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Re: Citizen pays New Yorkers to livestream crime scenes

#33

Post by Miner49er »

kall wrote: post #18
paxys wrote: post #10

What is Citizen's endgame here? Do they want to be some vigilante justice group? A private army? Protection racket?

I read this somewhere and it sounds plausible to me: a private police subscription. As-a-service if you will. They would do the same things as police but only for subscribers and with better "customer service". Maybe you could also look at the same thing as: as private security + private detectives (?) scaled and commoditized via software and gigwork. It‘s a nightmarish idea, don‘t get me wrong, but I can see it.

I'm not sure why you're being downvoted, they are already offering/piloting this type of service.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7evbx/citizen-app-private-s...

Re: Citizen pays New Yorkers to livestream crime scenes

#34

Post by systemvoltage »

ucm_edge wrote: post #17
paxys wrote: post #10

What is Citizen's endgame here? Do they want to be some vigilante justice group? A private army? Protection racket?

They partner with police. The revenue play is charging governments access to a feed of events happening just in their jurisdiction (with some cleaning up/grouping of similar reports). Citizen gets the police to pay them for access, then gets the police to advertise the app to them as an alternative to calling non emergency dispatch. In turn more people down Citizen and Citizen can probably monetize that. In LA they e…

Curious - what can this private Citizen branded patrol actually do? Isn't it just a camera on wheels? It can't make arrests, it can't handcuff people, it can't do much legally.

Re: Citizen pays New Yorkers to livestream crime scenes

#35

Post by genericone »

danpalmer wrote: post #29
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put even a slightly finer point on it -- isn't this, in a sense, journalism without a filter? Video can lie, but it's probably a bit harder to make a live streamed video lie than an article that recapitulates the content of such a stream. One thing I do seem to see over and over is a pattern where journalists are a little annoyed when companies encroach on the role of journalists but do so for less money. I'm sure…

> One thing I do seem to see over and over is a pattern where journalists are a little annoyed when companies encroach on the role of journalists but do so for less money. While there will be some bias from being challenged, I think there's also plenty of good reasons for journalists to challenge these sorts of companies. Journalism is a profession and brings with it a lot of ethical considerations. Teaching of journ…

Then would you willing to gatekeep people from calling themselves journalists, ala a license via something like a bar exam, where violating journalistic standards could get you "disbarred".

Re: Citizen pays New Yorkers to livestream crime scenes

#36

Post by Barrin92 »

aiisahik wrote: post #14
sickcodebruh wrote: post #6

Two related threads on Citizen in the last few months: * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27237520 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27236660 They reference each other, too. Citizen is nightmarish. All the “it’s a dystopian surveillance app built to exploit our worst fears” concerns about other social media products with only the most superficial veneer trying to hide it. I had it on my phone for months and…

Yes it's anxiety inducing but doesn't it just tell us the truth of who we are? If you can't handle the anxiety, nobody is forcing you to have it on your phone nor are they forcing you to be part of it. In other countries, the government has cameras everywhere and use the footage to find and prosecute. Apparently America prefers to have individuals take on that role.

>nobody is forcing you to have it on your phone nor are they forcing you to be part of it.

are you so sure about that? You might happen to be the 'wrong guy' who accidentally gets into the crossfire of the citizen app mob one day.

""first name? What is it?! publish ALL info," Frame told employees working in a Citizen Slack room who were working on the case. "FIND THIS FUCK," he told them. "LETS GET THIS GUY BEFORE MIDNIGHT HES GOING DOWN." "BREAKING NEWS. this guy is the devil. get him," Frame said. "by midnight!@#! we hate this guy. GET HIM." He was growing impatient. He increased the bounty to $20,000. Thousands of people were watching Citizen's livestream, but the man still hadn't been caught. Frame asked his staff to send out another notification, one that would hit all Citizen users in Los Angeles. The bounty had to go higher. "Close in on him. 30k Let's get him. No escape. Let's increase. 30k," Frame said. "Notify all of la. Blast to all of la.[...]"

"Well after midnight, Los Angeles police made an arrest. In a separate Slack room, employees cautiously began to celebrate: "cop said its an ongoing investigation, this looks like our guy!!!" one employee wrote. It wasn't Citizen's guy. Frame and the entirety of the Citizen apparatus had spent a whole night putting a bounty on the head of an innocent man."

https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3dpyw/inside-crime-app-citi...

Re: Citizen pays New Yorkers to livestream crime scenes

#37

Post by gruez »

Shmebulock wrote: post #31
cronix wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I thought that filming crime and police was solidly legal. Filming anything from a public space (street, sidewalk, etc) is legal, even if it's of a private space that is visible from public space. For example, if I'm on a public sidewalk next to your private residence, and you have the blinds open walking around naked - you have no reasonable expectation of privacy and can be filmed even though you're on your priva…

Is this generally how it works in most countries?

Common law countries? Yes.

Re: Citizen pays New Yorkers to livestream crime scenes

#38

Post by genericone »

systemvoltage wrote: post #34
ucm_edge wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They partner with police. The revenue play is charging governments access to a feed of events happening just in their jurisdiction (with some cleaning up/grouping of similar reports). Citizen gets the police to pay them for access, then gets the police to advertise the app to them as an alternative to calling non emergency dispatch. In turn more people down Citizen and Citizen can probably monetize that. In LA they e…

Curious - what can this private Citizen branded patrol actually do? Isn't it just a camera on wheels? It can't make arrests, it can't handcuff people, it can't do much legally.

Observe and report, and verbally harass if necessary, in an "acceptable" manner. Using robots apparently is not yet in vogue, so citizen branded patrol might be the current local-minima for this type of function:

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/13/16771148/robot-security-...

I knew someone that worked at the SFSPCA and they said the robot absolutely put a dent in car-break-ins, needling, and encampments in the animal-shelter parking lot, but advocates won in the end.

What worked in Knightscopes case is the feeling of "presence" that security cams, even the panning ones with a built-in speaker, are unable to give off. So Citizen branded patrols fill that "presence" role.

Re: Citizen pays New Yorkers to livestream crime scenes

#39

Post by tablespoon »

Shmebulock wrote: post #31
cronix wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I thought that filming crime and police was solidly legal. Filming anything from a public space (street, sidewalk, etc) is legal, even if it's of a private space that is visible from public space. For example, if I'm on a public sidewalk next to your private residence, and you have the blinds open walking around naked - you have no reasonable expectation of privacy and can be filmed even though you're on your priva…

Is this generally how it works in most countries?

> Is this generally how it works in most countries?

There's a lot of variation: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Country_specific_...

Re: Citizen pays New Yorkers to livestream crime scenes

#40

Post by notatoad »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #25
endisneigh wrote: post #16

I don’t like Citizen, but is it inherently a bad thing if there’s more accountability in the form of distributed filming of the government and its agents? My issue with citizen is more how it fear mongers and the general sentiment around what it’s doing. I also think it’s a terrible idea to encourage people to put themselves in potentially dangerous situations.

To put even a slightly finer point on it -- isn't this, in a sense, journalism without a filter? Video can lie, but it's probably a bit harder to make a live streamed video lie than an article that recapitulates the content of such a stream. One thing I do seem to see over and over is a pattern where journalists are a little annoyed when companies encroach on the role of journalists but do so for less money. I'm sure…

Journalism without a filter isn't journalism, it's surveillance.

a critical part of journalism is choosing what not to cover. people pay attention to the things it's easy to pay attention to, and good journalism makes sure that the news that is front-and-center and easiest for people to find is actually news. not every crime scene is newsworthy, most are incredibly personal and sensitive moments for at least one party involved, and the coverage should take that into account. pointing a livestreaming camera at the victim of every assualt or robbery is not providing any benefit to society.

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