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Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

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Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#411

Post by valarauko »

nindalf wrote: post #282
AYBABTME wrote: post #161

Some people take this idea to heart a bit too much. Barely anyone can pronounce my name properly and I really don't bat an eye at it. It's not pragmatic to expect most people to do so, especially in a place like the US where so many people come from different backgrounds. And that's nothing to say about the fact that the same name, written the same way, can be pronounced very differently depending on the bearer's bac…

> it seems to me that the people who care the most about this issue are monolingual. Sort of. I’d speculate that those who care about it the most are people who’ve never struggled and failed to pronounce a name in another language. In my limited experience of knowing 3 languages I never had trouble with any pronunciation. So I came to the unfounded conclusion that a. I can pronounce anything and b. everyone should pr…

> try pronouncing the word “Tamil” from the language Tamil. I haven’t heard anyone who wasn’t a native speaker pronounce it correctly.

(non-Tamil here) Off the top of my head I can think of at least two distinct ways I have heard native Tamils speakers pronounce the name, and both are convinced that they are correct. Plenty of Tamils pronounce it with a retroflex 'r', while a majority consider it archaic and pronounce it with a retroflex 'l'.

The ழ was originally kind of a retroflex 'r' sound, but many Tamils consider it archaic & pronounce it as similar to a retroflex 'l' ள் - when questioned a native Tamil speaker from Tamil Nadu told me that ள் and ழ are pronounced the same.

Consider the word வாழை பழம் (banana), with two retroflex 'r' sounds. I have heard people pronounce it with both (and how its retained in Malayalam), and many will change one of them to a retroflex 'l'. In my restricted sample of asking a handful of native speakers to say the word, at least one consistently changed both to a retroflex 'l'.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#412

Post by kragen »

nindalf wrote: post #404
kragen wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How's http://canonical.org/~kragen/tmp/tamiltamiltamil.ogg ? I've never tried to utter a retroflex approximant before, and while I think I might have pronounced it correctly, I think I'd have a hard time reliably distinguishing it from a retroflex tap or a voiced (really) alveolar approximant. As for learning to distinguish X from Sh, and the Ch/J/Zh/Q and C/Z distinctions in Mandarin, I think your beliefs may have s…

I don't think you're quite there yet. It's more like how this lady says it in the first 10 seconds - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMJNV61I9iU . She guides you through pronouncing these sounds. You're right though. I could probably get Chinese pronunciation correct given enough time and effort. but it's not trivial, like I thought earlier.

Thanks!

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#413

Post by nautilius »

rendall wrote: post #408
nautilius wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you speak any non-English language, you will know that this obsession with getting English-language speakers to pronounce foreign words "correctly" is unique. No speaker of any other language in the world even tries to pronounce foreign words like foreigners do, nor are they expected to. Oh boy, generalize much? If I had a dime every time an American explained to me how to properly pronounce Porsche, Adidas, Bach…

Americans drive this too. If you read carefully I didn't say we don't.

You wrote "Despite the stereotype, it's not Americans running around telling foreigners how to pronounce English words in their native tongue."

Sure, technically 'Americans running around telling foreigners how to pronounce their own words in their native tongue.' is different, but it seems an even lower threshold.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#414

Post by b3morales »

soperj wrote: post #335
neltnerb wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of the story of the town of Versailles, Indiana. It was common knowledge nearby that anyone who came in and pronounced it "ver-sai" was from out of town. Because everyone living there called it "ver-sails". I use this as an example of how if anyone gets to decide how something is pronounced, it's the people who live there. The city is simply called "ver-sails" and that's all there is to it. It is not…

> This reminds me of the story of the town of Versailles, Indiana. Detroit would be the same way if it wasn't such a big city. Easier to see when you add back the accent, Détroit.

Versailles, France, is much more well-known than Le Détroit, France, though. (In the U.S.)

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#415

Post by eyko »

Vinnl wrote: post #361
eyko wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same boat here. Vicente in Spanish so I go by Vincent most of the time (either the english or the French pronounciations, I don't care). Most people see my name in Spanish and pronounce it like it was Italian ("Vinchente", they always add an N). I've never been bothered by it one bit, at least they tried. For the curious, the correct pronounciation is either "Vee-sen-teh" or with the spanish voiceless-dental-fricativ…

Super off-topic, but my name is Vincent and I'm learning some basic Spanish vocabulary, and it's been at the back of my mind for a while that I'm not really sure how I'm supposed to pronounce my name in Spanish. So maybe you could help: how would you pronounce my name when speaking Spanish - would you turn it into Vicente, use the English or French pronunciation, or is there a "proper" Spanish way to pronounce it? (F…

Most people pronounce the spanish Vicente as "Beethenteh" in castellano but you can definitely ignore the "th" sound and pronounce it like an S, it's your name after all, you make the rules! In some spanish languages there's no "th" sound (e.g. Catalan) so it's really not an issue.

It will definitely be much easier for spaniards to pronounce the english version of Vincent than the french. We probably have the worst french pronounciation in Europe despite the fact that we're neighbours! I always chuckle with how some people pronounce croissant: "curasan" (an attempt to transliterate as "cruasan", I believe).

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#416

Post by eyko »

empeyot wrote: post #337
eyko wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same boat here. Vicente in Spanish so I go by Vincent most of the time (either the english or the French pronounciations, I don't care). Most people see my name in Spanish and pronounce it like it was Italian ("Vinchente", they always add an N). I've never been bothered by it one bit, at least they tried. For the curious, the correct pronounciation is either "Vee-sen-teh" or with the spanish voiceless-dental-fricativ…

In English the /v/ in the phonetic spelling [edit, was: transcription] vee usually represents a voiced labiodental fricative (as /v/ in Italian Vincente) whereas most Spanish speakers will pronounce v (just like b) as voiced bilabial fricative or approximant. That is, I'd expect Vicente to be phonetically spelled bee-sen-teh (well aware that English /b/ is not a fricative as Spanish /v/ and /b/).

You're right! Most castellano speakers don't make a distinction between /b/ and /v/. Some latin american countries do make the distinction and also some spanish regions, like catalan/valenciano speakers in certain regions have a stronger or softer, yet still distinct /v/ sound, such as in "a veure, Vicent" (let's see, Vincent).

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#417

Post by bitcurious »

notafraudster wrote: post #300
AYBABTME wrote: post #161

Some people take this idea to heart a bit too much. Barely anyone can pronounce my name properly and I really don't bat an eye at it. It's not pragmatic to expect most people to do so, especially in a place like the US where so many people come from different backgrounds. And that's nothing to say about the fact that the same name, written the same way, can be pronounced very differently depending on the bearer's bac…

I am E/F bilingual. I taught in an educational institution which is multicultural with dozens of cultural origins. When I get names wrong, I see grimaces on their faces. When I hear other people get common but foreign names -- like Nguyen for instance -- wrong, I grimace too. I am now at an institution in a country where basically no one outside the country knows how to pronounce anything. It takes me about 5 minutes…

The idea that you can Google how to pronounce a name is in itself presumptuous. My name from a European country is spelled the same but pronounced differently as a name much more commonly used in South America. If you googled how to say it you would get the wrong answer. I’d rather you just butcher it in American than make assumptions about my origin.

If you want an analogue, think of Muhammad Ali. Arabic name, non-Arabic pronunciation.

That said, I certainly wouldn’t get upset at the effort. I’d assume you mean well, so no foul. It’s just not that important.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#418

Post by eyko »

LegitShady wrote: post #356
eyko wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another interesting one: James and Jacob are the same name (from the Hebrew Yaʿqob), and in spanish it's either found as "Jaime", "Jacobo" or "Santiago" which comes from "Saint Iago" (Iago being an old spanish conversion of the Latin "Iacobus" which came to other romance languages as Yago, Iaco, Jacob, Yacobo, Jacobo etc). The "J" consonant leads to many interesting things because of how many pronounciations it has.…

The hebrew ‘jacob’ is pronounced with a v rather than b sound at the end as well. It’s more like Yaqov than Yaqob. It uses the same letter ‘bet’ but with a dot in the middle its a b sound, without the dot in the middle its a v sound, and in modern use they don’t add the dots in at all and assume everyone knows how to pronounce things.

TIL! So many (most?) christian names have hebrew origins so it's just great to see how much hebrew pronounciation has been completely violated to create words that sometimes barely resemble the original.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#419

Post by II2II »

notafraudster wrote: post #300
AYBABTME wrote: post #161

Some people take this idea to heart a bit too much. Barely anyone can pronounce my name properly and I really don't bat an eye at it. It's not pragmatic to expect most people to do so, especially in a place like the US where so many people come from different backgrounds. And that's nothing to say about the fact that the same name, written the same way, can be pronounced very differently depending on the bearer's bac…

I am E/F bilingual. I taught in an educational institution which is multicultural with dozens of cultural origins. When I get names wrong, I see grimaces on their faces. When I hear other people get common but foreign names -- like Nguyen for instance -- wrong, I grimace too. I am now at an institution in a country where basically no one outside the country knows how to pronounce anything. It takes me about 5 minutes…

> It's not because they're frothing at the mouth racists, it's because they're minorly inconsiderate.

There is a very good chance that your correction is coming off as inconsiderate since it is interrupting the flow of conversation and perhaps even the other person's train of thought. That interruption is also going to affect how well they remember the correction. If they were unprepared for an off-topic interjection, it is probable that they didn't hear what was being said or it did not register in their memory.

So yes, getting people's names correct is important. On the other hand, letting people get your name is important (rather than forcing the issue).

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#420

Post by bmn__ »

loycombinate wrote: post #113
tdeck wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wondered this too when learning Pinyin. I believe the reason is that while Pinyin's X and Q may sound like "sh" and "ch" to English speakers, they are actually different sounds (and contrast with the "sh" and "ch" sounds that also exist in Mandarin). That said, I still wonder why -ui was chosen for "wei", "shi" is pronounced "shr", "-ian" is pronounced "yen", etc... MPS-II seems much closer to intuitive pronunciati…

A Chinese teacher once told me that pinyin is based off Russian

That's more wrong than correct. There's only one minor part of the design where we can see a relation: Latin q resembles Cyrillic ч.
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