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Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

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Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#391
post #155

If you're interested in learning to pronounce non-English things, I highly recommend learning the IPA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabe... You can get away from this vague stuff like 'an "ah" vowel', and learn (1) the real way the pronounce the names, including sounds that aren't in English, and (2) the precise closest English approximation, without having to go through analogies and metaph…

I agree fully, and I wish, for written communication (chat, emails) people could use some latin/ascii based transliteration of IPA. There is X-SAMPA [1], though it's not much used yet. I think a simple input method, available on all keyboards and maybe some textual annotation for text sections being in IPA, might give this a much bigger audience. Many people are often in meetings where they don't know how to pronounc…

This would be a bad idea, due to inter-dialectal variation. As I said in an earlier comment [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27070624]:

> Phonetic spelling is useless when you’ve got more than one dialect. For instance, consider the word ‘castle’. Is this [kæsɫ̩], or [kɑːsl̩], or [kɑːsu] (as it is for me), or something else entirely? Having an orthography which is not purely phonetic avoids this problem.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#392
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even within English there are different accents. I'm British. If I meet an American "Annie" then do I put on a faux American accent while saying her name? Or do I just say "Annie" with a British accent? If it's allowed or even expected that I shift "Annie" into my accent, why not a non-English name? What about European names that have English equivalents but are pronounced differently in European languages? My own na…

I'm Scottish-American immigrant. Pronunciation is a funny thing. Marry (tie the knot), Mary (the person), and Merry (happy at Christmas). My parents and I pronounce them differently (mah-ry, mai-ry, meh-ry). My younger sister, who lacks any Scottish accent, pronounces them the same. Same with the woman's name Carrie/Kerrie - same in the US, but subtly different in Scotland. Then there's the "wh" sound. More of a "hwh…

In parts of the American South, “wh” is still pronounced, though it is fading.

The South had a large influx of Scottish immigration 200-300 years ago and it still shows.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#393
post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. This confusion of spellings is due to English having a long history of literacy. The k in knock is silent, but once was pronounced. The pronunciation of knock changed but its spelling did not. Nevertheless, there are historical reasons for these various spellings, its not just "whatever". In any case, these are English words, not foreign words. English words follow specific conventions. This is why English speak…

You have it backwards. Pronunciation in English does not follow many strict conventions -- and when it does it doesn't do so consistently -- and it's precisely because it's taken on so many loan-words and kept something close to the original pronounciation. You suggest "ch" should be pronounced as in "cheese" in English. Well, what about chemistry, christian, school, alchemy, anarchy, anchor, chaos, archeology, echo,…

> refusing to pronounce words correctly

That's skewing the argument. The discussion is "should English speakers be expected to pronounce foreign words as they are pronounced in the original language"?

Not "pronouncing words as foreigners do is the correct pronunciation when speaking English"

Despite the stereotype, it's not Americans running around telling foreigners how to pronounce English words in their native tongue. No American tells Poles how to pronounce New York nor Yoruba how to pronounce jazz nor Italians how to pronounce pepperoni.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#394

Some people take this idea to heart a bit too much. Barely anyone can pronounce my name properly and I really don't bat an eye at it. It's not pragmatic to expect most people to do so, especially in a place like the US where so many people come from different backgrounds. And that's nothing to say about the fact that the same name, written the same way, can be pronounced very differently depending on the bearer's bac…

So people can learn names like Schwarzenegger but not others?

We can learn chai and yoga and namaste but not the names of the people it belongs to.

Seems more not wanting to make people uncomfortable which is fine, I have had to navigate the same.

When I come across a name I haven’t heard before, I just go out of my way to ask people how to pronounce their name and say it’s important to me. Sometimes demonstrating how to have the conversation of asking comfortably is the most important first step.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#395

> First, if you can remember only 3 things: > Zh is like a J sound (as in "Jam") > X is like a Sh sound (as in "Shot") > Q is like a Ch sound (as in "China") This is very useful to know, but I have a question. When converting the original characters into English, why didn't the creators of this system choose letters which more closely match the native pronunciation? For example, why "Qi" instead of "Chi"?

> When converting the original characters into English

Latin characters is correct, not English

> why didn't the creators of this system choose letters which more closely match the native pronunciation?

Because among other things the designers of Pīnyīn wanted the users to be able to type the letters on commonly available typewriters (in the 1950s).

A 100% match is of course the IPA, but that was exceedingly difficult to type until late after the advent of personal computers. Pīnyīn is a compromise. Compare:

tɕʰiː˥˩ · qì

ʈʂʰɻ̩˥ · chī

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#396
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Just pronounce it the way it's spelled" might make sense in some languages, and it probably makes a lot of sense in Russian, say, where the person who transcribed a name from Latin letters has already decided how it should be (mis)pronounced (though the position of the stress makes a big difference in Russian), but it doesn't make sense in English because the spelling is rather inconsistent even if you're looking ju…

Yes. This confusion of spellings is due to English having a long history of literacy. The k in knock is silent, but once was pronounced. The pronunciation of knock changed but its spelling did not. Nevertheless, there are historical reasons for these various spellings, its not just "whatever". In any case, these are English words, not foreign words. English words follow specific conventions. This is why English speak…

I don't know what conventions that would be, are you familiar with the poem 'The Chaos'? https://ncf.idallen.com/english.html

Just one example" " Just compare heart, beard, and heard, Dies and diet, lord and word, Sword and sward, retain and Britain. (Mind the latter, how it's written.) Now I surely will not plague you With such words as plaque and ague. But be careful how you speak: Say break and steak, but bleak and streak; Cloven, oven, how and low, Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe."

It seems that any English speaker expecting a certain pronunciation from spelling alone would have quite a hard time.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#397
post #370
post #367

Maybe I should submit a pull request for Spanish names. It'd be nice to get Arabic, Hindi, and Russian in there too. Common errors I've heard for Spanish: - Juan being pronounced as [wan] rather than [huan] or [xuan] - Jesus, of course - Javier mysteriously gets mispronounced (only by British English speakers!) with the akSENT on the wrong syLOBBle, as ['hav jɛ] HAVyer instead of [hav 'jɛ] hav YAIR (the closest appro…

I would submit a small rule for almost all foreign names and words, or at the very least European and Middle Eastern ones: The letter "e" is almost never pronounced like "bee." Though I shouldn't be, I am continually surprised by this Anglophone quirk. Just yesterday I was at a book club after we had all read the book "Piranesi," and without failure every American pronounced it "Piranisi." There are two different vow…

Well, it's certainly true that "e" for [i] is almost unique to English.

But it's pretty common for languages to preserve phonetic distinctions in their orthography that have disappeared from the spoken language—Latin American Spanish has silent "h", "z"/"c"/"s", and "b"/"v", so "Helvecia" would be pronounced exactly the same way if it were spelled any of "Helbecia", "Helbezia", "Helbesia", "Helvezia", "Helvesia", "Elbecia", "Elbezia", "Elbesia", "Elvecia", "Elvezia", or "Elvesia", and if you think "Helvezia" is impossible I refer you to "azimut", "zinc", and "enzima". And on my local blacksmithing group on Fecebutt I regularly see people spelling "haber" as "aver". Not to mention "k"/"qu"/"c"—no reason "cuákerismo", "folklórico", and "kilovatio" couldn't be spelled "cuáquerismo", "folclórico", and "quilovatio", but they aren't. ¿Kesesto? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4DbC1rbERg

In the other direction, it's pretty common for languages to have more vowels than the Latin alphabet, like English's 13 or so (14 in my idiolect). Even Latin itself had 10 vowels. There are several different ways to handle this problem: you can just hope people guess the right pronunciation from context (like modern English and classical Latin, though modern transcriptions of classical Latin often have macrons to help you out); you can use digraphs, as in "floe" and "each"; you can use a different alphabet with more vowels, like bopomofo (12 or 17 vowel signs, depending on whether you count codas that include consonants) or Cyrillic (9 or 13 vowel signs, depending on how you feel about diacritics) or hangeul (10, 21, or 22 vowel signs, again depending on how you count); or you can use diacritics, as in Portuguese "à" [a], "â" [ɐ], "ã" [ɐ̃], "à" [a]. Or some combination.

Speaking of Portuguese, though, many dialects of Portuguese are an exception to your generally excellent rule: "livre" is totally pronounced [livɾi] in, for example, Rio Grande do Sul. This is made more complicated by the fact that in stressed syllables it's totally [ɛ] and not [i].

I think [ɛ] "90% of the time" is an exaggeration given that only 86% of people are non-Chinese, and Chinese is another exception; as noted in the original article, "e" in hanyu pinyin is [ə], as in French (another 1% of people). But [i] is a very rare value for "e" outside English.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if your name is “ Friedrich” you should accept that it’s unpronounceable for an Italian and that “fredrik” I think that the only unpronounceable things in "Freidrich" for an Italian speaker are the guttural Rs and the /ç/ sound at the end. Most Italians are acquainted to the fact that 'ei' is /ai/ in German thank to South Tyrol and names such as "Einstein" being common knowledge - nobody would ever pronounce it /'e…

I think people really overdo the idea that certain sounds simply cannot be replicated by non-native speakers. If there is any remote proximity to native speakers and a bare minimum effort is made to practice tricky sounds, it's totally doable. I certainly picked up French quite easily in school. Later, in university, I picked up Italian very easily (though I had some exposure from older relatives). More recently, I a…

Of course you can replicate all sounds, I can pronounce Friedrich, but an Italian speaker with no exposure to German (which is 99% of the population) will inevitably butcher it, because both the R and the “voiceless palatal fricative” do not exist in Italian phonology. This hypothetical Friedrich can either accept that he is talking to foreigners that can’t pronounce his name as native Germans, or he may spend 2 hours trying to explain how to articulate a voiceless palatal fricative, assuming he can put that in words (I wouldn’t know where to start to explain how to pronounce “gli”). We all know what a polite person would do.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#400
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pinyin is pretty close. At least it's predictable. Wade-Giles is way off -well, I guess it was based off Cantonese? In any case, my pet peeve is people expecting speakers of English to accommodate foreign sounds, but not extending the same ask to foreign speakers who often mangle English name sounds just as much. I say just let them say it however they know how and let it be. I don't mind if they can't pronounce my n…

Pinyin is predictable if you memorize every single syllable that exists, it is not logical on a letter-by-letter basis. For example, "liu" should be pronounced "liou" and "shui" should be pronounced "shuei", but the "o" and "e" are omitted in Pinyin for brevity. Similarly, the "u" in lu and mu is different from the "u" in "ju" and "qu"; the latter is actually "jü" and "qü" as in "nü" and "lü", again the diareses are…

Probably you speak more Chinese than I do, but as I understand it, you don't have to memorize the syllables, just the 22 (?) onsets and 17 (?) vowel+codas, same as in bopomofo, just more sneakily. Plus nü and lü, I guess. But that still means memorizing 41 pronunciations instead of the 374 you suggest. Is that right, or is the situation far more complicated than it appears?
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