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Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

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Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#341

Post by rendall »

ithinkso wrote: post #330
rendall wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you think is unique because you are English-language speaker I am a native English-language speaker, but I speak other languages as well. In all languages, there is exactly zero expectation that speakers will pronounce English words like English-speakers do. Because in all languages, foreign words are remade into native words. As it had been in English until the mid 20th century. > And if you mean the names of peop…

You are being downvoted, as should you, but I still want to answer your questions. > Not sure what language you speak natively Polish >but no one corrects Italians for saying "Germania" instead of Deutschland, nor Spaniards for saying "Nueva York", nor the French for saying "Angleterre". It's literally the second thing people learn when learning a second language. The first is how to say your name, the second is wher…

> You are being downvoted

I am not being downvoted

> as should you

Downvotes are for "contravenes guidelines" not "holds opinions with which I disagree"

> lol so I'm not sure what are you talking about

With sincere respect, I think you should take the time to understand my argument instead of assuming it is invalid.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#342

Post by JohnHaugeland »

yesenadam wrote: post #4
Epenthesis wrote: post #2

A good addition might be to point out good first guesses for the vowels in non-English names (Examples used assume a General American accent): * "A" as in "ah" (like "ah, I see") * "E" as in "e" in "pet", or the "ai" in "pain" * "I" as in the "i" in "pit" or the "ea" in "peat" * "O" as in the "o" in "cot" or the "o" in "cone" * "U" as in the "u" in "put" or the "oo" in "doom" (Americans might notice that this approxi…

> "A" as in the "au" in "caught" Not an expert, but I can't offhand think of a language where this is even approximately how a is pronounced—which ones are you thinking of?

Most of New England, as well as much of old England

This too can be looked up

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#343

Post by alistairSH »

rlpb wrote: post #234
pledess wrote: post #78

Because of categorical perception (as defined on the https://dictionary.apa.org/categorical-perception page), there's no general agreement on the "correct" way to pronounce a non-English name within English communication to a mostly English speaking audience. Some people argue that the right approach is to always use the closest equivalents within the English phonemic inventory. In this view, it's incorrect to sudden…

Even within English there are different accents. I'm British. If I meet an American "Annie" then do I put on a faux American accent while saying her name? Or do I just say "Annie" with a British accent? If it's allowed or even expected that I shift "Annie" into my accent, why not a non-English name? What about European names that have English equivalents but are pronounced differently in European languages? My own na…

I'm Scottish-American immigrant. Pronunciation is a funny thing.

Marry (tie the knot), Mary (the person), and Merry (happy at Christmas). My parents and I pronounce them differently (mah-ry, mai-ry, meh-ry). My younger sister, who lacks any Scottish accent, pronounces them the same. Same with the woman's name Carrie/Kerrie - same in the US, but subtly different in Scotland.

Then there's the "wh" sound. More of a "hwh" sound vs the American plain-old "w". Lots of teasing from friends when I say white or wheels or which.

This all used to cause good-natured fun for my mom and her peers, as she was an ESOL teacher.

For the most part, I'm just happy if people get my name mostly correct. Alistair shouldn't be that hard, but apparently it is.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#344

Post by rayiner »

AYBABTME wrote: post #161

Some people take this idea to heart a bit too much. Barely anyone can pronounce my name properly and I really don't bat an eye at it. It's not pragmatic to expect most people to do so, especially in a place like the US where so many people come from different backgrounds. And that's nothing to say about the fact that the same name, written the same way, can be pronounced very differently depending on the bearer's bac…

> I really don't bat an eye at it. It's not pragmatic to expect most people to do so, especially in a place like the US where so many people come from different backgrounds

This. My name is a whimsical permutation of a Monacan name but I’m south Asian so it confuses the heck out of people. So I just go by Ray, which frankly is kind of a sketchy name, like “Trent” or “Chad.” But it’s easy to pronounce.

It’s no big deal! Why would I take offense when an American who is often mispronouncing his own French, German, or Polish family name mispronounces mine? (Sorry, Mr. Koch, your name is “Cock” not “Coke.”)

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#345

Post by bmn__ »

silisili wrote: post #129

I appreciate the effort, but I don't like this attitude of blaming the speaker. My company once even had a video saying that mispronouncing a name was a 'microaggression.' That insanity aside, there are sounds and consonants people just cannot make past a certain age. As long as we aren't being demeaning, why go for perfection? Nearly every foreigner pronounces the short 'i' in my name as 'ee', and I've never once ca…

> there are sounds and consonants people just cannot make past a certain age

That's false.

> why go for perfection?

It's politeness, nay, more than that: respect. Trying hard to produce a name as accurately as one can shows one's dialogue partner or audience that one is making an effort. A name is a very personal thing. People like it when they notice that they are paid attention to, and will approve of and in their mind raise the social status of the speaker.

Positive examples are:

• Max Miller of "tasting history" who quite obviously spends some time to learn a word or name correctly from an experienced speaker.

• Louis Rossmann who does not prepare, but is apologetic ("pardon me for butchering the pronunciation") or would altogether skip reading a name out loud rather than mangling it. This is okay because the text of the news article is also on the screen.

Negative examples are:

• Most other people who in general just hope for the best and simply blindly apply the rules from the embedding language (here: English), or if confronted with something out of their experience, just make shit up.

• Adam Ragusea whose argument boils down to "I am American, therefore exceptional and I get a free pass to knowingly and willingly mispronounce".

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#346

Post by rayiner »

remarkEon wrote: post #191
AYBABTME wrote: post #161

Some people take this idea to heart a bit too much. Barely anyone can pronounce my name properly and I really don't bat an eye at it. It's not pragmatic to expect most people to do so, especially in a place like the US where so many people come from different backgrounds. And that's nothing to say about the fact that the same name, written the same way, can be pronounced very differently depending on the bearer's bac…

My last name is French, but in reality the name comes from Germany. My family has been pronouncing it incorrectly for 100 years, and I … just don’t care enough to enforce the correct pronunciation. It feels snobbish to me, like you said. Might be an artifact of being an American.

> My family has been pronouncing it incorrectly for 100 years

Yes! This is why I’m not the least bit offended when someone mispronounces my name.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#347

Post by rendall »

bloak wrote: post #324
rendall wrote: post #272

If you speak any non-English language, you will know that this obsession with getting English-language speakers to pronounce foreign words "correctly" is unique. No speaker of any other language in the world even tries to pronounce foreign words like foreigners do, nor are they expected to. Just pronounce it the way it's spelled, and if you're speaking English, that is the correct way. Join me in my militant quest to…

"Just pronounce it the way it's spelled" might make sense in some languages, and it probably makes a lot of sense in Russian, say, where the person who transcribed a name from Latin letters has already decided how it should be (mis)pronounced (though the position of the stress makes a big difference in Russian), but it doesn't make sense in English because the spelling is rather inconsistent even if you're looking ju…

Yes. This confusion of spellings is due to English having a long history of literacy. The k in knock is silent, but once was pronounced. The pronunciation of knock changed but its spelling did not. Nevertheless, there are historical reasons for these various spellings, its not just "whatever". In any case, these are English words, not foreign words.

English words follow specific conventions. This is why English speakers who read "bruschetta" will not pronounce the ch with a hard k, as Italians do. Unless they are told this pronunciation is "incorrect". If it's really important to bruschetta marketers that English speakers pronounce it the way Italians do, they should consider spelling it using English conventions, eg brusketa

As you pointed out, English spelling is confusing. We don't need to add to the cognitive load by insisting that words spelled according to foreign conventions be pronounced that way too

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#348

Post by happy_path »

throwaway287391 wrote: post #323
happy_path wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good idea. Establishing a relationship between your name and with some named thing of the real world: a TV series character, a city, etc.

I get your point but I like that you describe the name of a character in a fictional TV show as a "thing of the real world", as compared to the name of a coworker you speak with regularly. :p

Well, maybe "thing of their culture" would have been a more appropiate term.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#349

Post by mkotowski »

ajuc wrote: post #217
ithinkso wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, Łukasz is the same name as Lucas and because ASCII and internet it's very common to just write it as Lukasz because no matter if you're talking to the native or not, they will know what you mean (it is very common for polish people to omit polish letter altogether when texting/writing informally online because the correct letters can be inferred from the context so why bother pressing that alt key). If you were…

> it is very common for polish people to omit polish letter Is it still common? It was popular when there were many encodings that always broke and when people wrote SMS by pressing number keys 5 times for 1 letter, now I don't see it that often. I'd say it's about as common as writting l8r in English :)

Less common than it used to be, but still happens. Mostly when writing in a hurry (of course without auto-correction turned on) or interacting with older systems and applications. Also, it is so rare to use Polish letters in a URL, that if you were to dictate one based on a Polish word(s) most people would simply spell it without them (ł → l, ą → a, etc.).

By the way, never try to use Polish letters in a Windows username. It works, but every once in a while something third-party or rarely used breaks unexpectedly.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#350

Post by rendall »

jpxw wrote: post #333
rendall wrote: post #272

If you speak any non-English language, you will know that this obsession with getting English-language speakers to pronounce foreign words "correctly" is unique. No speaker of any other language in the world even tries to pronounce foreign words like foreigners do, nor are they expected to. Just pronounce it the way it's spelled, and if you're speaking English, that is the correct way. Join me in my militant quest to…

Agreed. Changing pronunciation mid-sentence to a language you don’t even speak is very difficult, and in any case comes off as pretentious. Non-native speakers will be used to the English pronunciation, even if it’s wrong. If you try and pronounce the name “correctly”, the chances are you’ll mess it up and cause even more confusion.

q.v.: The guy who over pronounces foreign words

https://youtu.be/fKGoVefhtMQ

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