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TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

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Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#141

Post by bserge »

RivieraKid wrote: post #123
martin_a wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German myself: Why would you not invest? Infrastructure, state of mind? I'd really love to see more high-tech companies invest here, after we've managed to kill the solar companies... :-/

My general impression is that Germany is not innovative, dynamic and backwards in technology among developed nations. For example: http://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/17307.jpeg Also, they've made some seemingly stupid decisions such as closing nuclear power plants. And I'm not a fan of their climate change policy, they should push for a worldwide carbon tax instead of forcing EVs.

> closing nuclear power plants

Making electricity more expensive, leading to A/C being expensive, leading to beer being sold unrefrigerated, leading to a general cognitive decline.

Butterfly effect :D

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#142

Post by ng55QPSK »

tobessebot wrote: post #51
artemonster wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also like that, but its highly unlikely :) Saxony is actively pushing towards becoming "Silicon Saxony". Munich established itself as a design hub.

Munich does have Infineon as well and it's closer to lots of the eventual customers in the automobile industry.

IFX and the split of part of Intel doesn't have Fabs in Munich area - but some testing.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#143

Post by Akronymus »

MarcusE1W wrote: post #90
suction wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might be true, but in Germany, the salary you pay to your employee is also about 1% of all the labor cost for him or her. Which is hyperbole, of course, but Germany is one of those countries where the actual net payout is usually significantly less than 50% of the salary the company provides. I'm not criticising it as I think Germany is a good example of a well-working system but net salaries are low for most.

It’s probably true that the net salary is lower than some other comparable countries, although Denmark for example has also a quite low net salary. I feel the important bit is what you get for the net salary deduction. In Germany you have: - Free Education including University - A decent mostly free health system, health care insurance - unemployment insurance so your life does not completely unravel if you are made…

Even if you take the gross salaray it is MUCH lower than what the company actually pays. Last time I looked it up, the company pays about as much in insurance, taxes and such as your gross is.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#144

Post by rsynnott »

nbevans wrote: post #112
rsynnott wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> after everybody is seeing what Germany is doing to Tesla's Gigafactory there Requiring it to follow the rules? As a portion of GDP, manufacturing is a bigger part of Germany's economy than nearly any other developed country. It is even higher as a portion of GDP than _China_ (edit not China, see below). Pretty much everyone except Tesla seems to cope, so I'm inclined to assume that this is more a Tesla incompetence…

Dial down your tone - it is unwarranted. Rules and red tape was exactly my point. Why would TSMC choose to run that gauntlet willingly and potentially fall foul of the same hurdles that Tesla has encountered? One of the big problems Tesla had was around water supply. Do you have any idea how much water a chip fab uses? My point around export restrictions was in reference to the EU blocking vaccine exports this year b…

> One of the big problems Tesla had was around water supply.

Sure, but this was a completely predictable problem, and one that should have been assessed before they decided on a site. I would assume that TSMC would do the research before deciding on a site. It feels like another manifestation of Tesla's reluctance to ask outside experts, tbh.

Other chip manufacturers seem to manage in European countries which are fussy about water; notably, GlobalFoundries in Germany and Intel in Ireland both have large facilities.

> My point around export restrictions was in reference to the EU blocking vaccine exports this year because it suited them.

This should actually probably be viewed as a positive. There was a big fuss about the EU blocking, I believe, two or three shipments precisely because it had not previously blocked any; at the time this became an issue the EU and India were the only large producers with no controls on export of finished product (strictly speaking the UK didn't have controls in the conventional sense, but its contracts with its only manufacturer effectively didn't allow export). Both ultimately introduced controls, though in Europe's case they were very limited.

If you've had a Pfizer/Biontec vaccine and you live outside the US, it was almost certainly made in the EU unless you had it in the last month or so (the US has started allowing exports).

For all the fuss about that incident, Europe was _less_ inclined to control export than the other large economies.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#145

Post by ng55QPSK »

moooo99 wrote: post #105
tobessebot wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Munich does have Infineon as well and it's closer to lots of the eventual customers in the automobile industry.

But is the automotive industry really the main customers for TSMC? Judging by all the news I read about the company, the main reason for the hype is that they are always on the bleeding edge of semiconductor manufacturing, which isn't usually something that you'd find in the automotive sector. And assuming that the automotive industry is the target customer: Volkswagen has their biggest plant in Saxony, which is thei…

Looking closely at the net of motorways, any part of germany is in close distance to VW, BWM, Daimler and Porsche.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#146

Post by jansan »

Also, according to article linked below (in German), Intel is considering building a semiconductor factory in Germany. The had plans in 2003, but the project failed and cost the German taxpayer a small fortune.

I am very sceptical regarding the plans of Intel, but the TSMC plan sounds promising. If I were to decide, I would build a factory in Saxonia near Dresden. People there are traditionally inventive, labor costs are far lower than in the Munich region, and there is a lot of skill available due to the previous AMD investments.

Link to article: https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/mensch-metropole/chipfabrik-...

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#147

Post by bserge »

adrian_b wrote: post #23
RicoElectrico wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish :) There's no infrastructure or know-how in Poland regarding microelectronics. The only related field is ASIC design - a few offices of American companies like Synopsys (>100 employees), Silicon Creations (a few dozen employees), Cadence (a few dozen as well). Intel has a massive R&D site but they don't do hardware design here, maybe except FPGA.

In the more distant past, i.e. up to 1990, all the Eastern European countries, including Poland, had semiconductor plants and many people, both engineers and workers, with good know-how. However, after 1990, the plants have been closed and most of the skilled people have gone to USA, Canada or Western Europe. So for the present time you might be right, it could be difficult to find enough experienced workforce, unlik…

You can find it in the west... But then you have to pay them a lot heh

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#148

Post by corty »

detaro wrote: post #134
corty wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no overt pushback. That doesn't mean that there is none. And the presence and activity of the usual environmental NIMBY organisations like Deutsche Umwelthilfe, NABU, BUND, etc. point to at least some covert opposition, since those organisations happily serve as fronts for non-environmental interests. And state politics, especially in the east, is rife with people using it as a stepping stone to the federal…

Anything that's not just wild speculation of what people could be doing, although to no apparent effect?

Since it is about corruption, of course there is only wild speculation. Maybe in 20 years someone will confess in their posthumous memoirs or something. Until then, there is only speculation, inference and the recognition of parallels to cases in the past.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#149

Post by volta83 »

bserge wrote: post #138
volta83 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying somebody 300k/year doesn't make them "top talent". The top talent is in the US, Taiwan, etc. designing the 3nm plants, operating the 5nm plants, doing research, etc. Why would a 600k$/year engineer relocate from the US to Germany for a 300k$ salary pay cut ? I've always made more money at my next job than the previous one. If a company wants me to leave my life here behind and move 15000km, they better offer m…

I mean, it's not like it's impossible to assemble a team that can become top talent. But they need the ability to "level up" (by working with already existing high tech). And then they leave for the US anyway heh.

This is a bit of a doubled-edged sword for German companies actually.

For example, Bosch has a research campus in california to try to achieve this.

The problem is, that after being 2 years in the US "becoming top talent", you now have the option of staying there making $$$ or coming back to germany.

Even companies like Bosch that invest a lot of money in these types of systems, have huge problems making competitive offers for the people that consider going back.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#150

Post by Akronymus »

suction wrote: post #76
Heliosmaster wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those companies involved in semiconductor industry, where machines cost 100M usd EACH... People are just a rounding error. Should we hire 100 more? 1000 more? Whatever

Keep in mind that for a high-profile engineer or lead who expects to make 400k at least per year, the company would actually have to pay him 800k to make that much net. Labor cost in Germany is sky high. That times a thousand is not insignificant.

And that 800 is what you see on your paycheck. The company pays around double that in total.
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