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TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

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Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overall semiconducting industry seems to be way more exciting than boring computer industry

ha! I guess you haven't worked as a designer or verification engineer, designing chips then? let me tell you: you work with a commitee-designed c++ like abomination language with 300 non-composible keywords that make no freaking sense. all of that crap grew from legacy-upon-legacy of crutches as an attempt to fix the goddamn broken-by-design verilog. Ultimately, this craplanguage + library that is 90% non-debuggable…

Any thoughts on Chisel?

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#82
post #57

I find it surprising that they are choosing Germany - after everybody is seeing what Germany is doing to Tesla's Gigafactory there (embroiling it in so much red tape that Elon wishes he could pull out if it weren't for sunk cost). It seems that Germany has a very good ability to convince and lobby these mega-manufacturers to base themselves there, but a very poor ability to actually let them succeed after making that…

I think the government considers semiconductors a key industry to compete with china and I believe that matters. American electric car manufacturers on the other hand are a threat to germany's combustion obsessed car industry. I also think that Elon runs his companies in an unconventional way that maybe doesn‘t fly with german bureaucrats. TSMC will do things by the book and the saxonian government will welcome them with open arms. They won‘t see any of the local government trouble that Tesla had in Dresden.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#83
post #35
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? From my POV Germany seems good at manufacturing. E.g. Siemens. And cars.

Labor laws would still be sort of OK for a high-tech factory like TSMC. But I think environmental policy would be really hostile to a large fab. Politics seems really fickle about it too. For "old school" industries like coal they try to bend over backwards to make exceptions, but when it comes to new players especially local politics will have little reservations to tanking your multi million dollar projects. This c…

You get some local activism against individual factories, but generally Germany is huge in building specialized industry and they manage to push companies to clean things up. For me that's all a win.

You can find giant chemical and manufacturing plants all across Germany.

Thinking Germany is problematic is a very narrow worldview, in most countries you have huge political/corruption/business continuity risks, from unsteady electricity to broken roads to terror threats - Germany is a safe and stable bet.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#84
post #57

I find it surprising that they are choosing Germany - after everybody is seeing what Germany is doing to Tesla's Gigafactory there (embroiling it in so much red tape that Elon wishes he could pull out if it weren't for sunk cost). It seems that Germany has a very good ability to convince and lobby these mega-manufacturers to base themselves there, but a very poor ability to actually let them succeed after making that…

Germany has dozens of chip manufacturers and great engineering workforce. Certainly much better than UK. Have not seen any wupte about Tesla wanting to pull out, but the factory is already half operational so seems most issues are resolved. Once located it should also be easier to do this kind of projects, but planting a new huge factory is always a challenge.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#85
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Germany really stable considering Tesla story ? Chip making isn't clean by any standard.

The Tesla story had two sides - Tesla was aware about the high standards that would be applied to their factory, but somehow thought "we're Tesla so they'll create all kinds of exceptions for us if we pay the right politicians". Turns out not every country is as corrupt as Tesla's home country.

Maybe. But I think all the politicians Tesla could have bought are already owned by their German competitors.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#86

If i were TCMS, i would not invest in Germany. But as a german, living in Germany, i am happy that they consider an investment in Germany.

Germany is a great place to invest. So is most of Western Europe. The #1 thing you are looking for is _stability_ and a good engineering job market. Both is available. For this kind of automated high-tech manufacturing, nobody cares about salaries. They are <<1% of the cost.

So is most of Eastern Europe you nazi prick.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#88
post #35
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? From my POV Germany seems good at manufacturing. E.g. Siemens. And cars.

Labor laws would still be sort of OK for a high-tech factory like TSMC. But I think environmental policy would be really hostile to a large fab. Politics seems really fickle about it too. For "old school" industries like coal they try to bend over backwards to make exceptions, but when it comes to new players especially local politics will have little reservations to tanking your multi million dollar projects. This c…

It sounds like a positive incentive to cleanup the processes involved. Where there is a will,there is a way, etc. I don’t think that offshoring dirty industry is anything but NIMBYism and ultimately we need to cleanup electronics fabrication

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#89
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is a great place to invest. So is most of Western Europe. The #1 thing you are looking for is _stability_ and a good engineering job market. Both is available. For this kind of automated high-tech manufacturing, nobody cares about salaries. They are <<1% of the cost.

Might be true, but in Germany, the salary you pay to your employee is also about 1% of all the labor cost for him or her. Which is hyperbole, of course, but Germany is one of those countries where the actual net payout is usually significantly less than 50% of the salary the company provides. I'm not criticising it as I think Germany is a good example of a well-working system but net salaries are low for most.

Germany has free schools, universities, low cost good child care, a relatively good health infrastructure, and more. Some regions do not even need debt any more to finance all this. The high taxes do not just evaporate, but sure could be used more efficiently.

If I'd have the choice between US and Germany, I'd probably prefer the old Europe model.

Re: TSMC eyes Germany as possible location for first Europe chip plant

#90
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is a great place to invest. So is most of Western Europe. The #1 thing you are looking for is _stability_ and a good engineering job market. Both is available. For this kind of automated high-tech manufacturing, nobody cares about salaries. They are <<1% of the cost.

Might be true, but in Germany, the salary you pay to your employee is also about 1% of all the labor cost for him or her. Which is hyperbole, of course, but Germany is one of those countries where the actual net payout is usually significantly less than 50% of the salary the company provides. I'm not criticising it as I think Germany is a good example of a well-working system but net salaries are low for most.

It’s probably true that the net salary is lower than some other comparable countries, although Denmark for example has also a quite low net salary.

I feel the important bit is what you get for the net salary deduction. In Germany you have: - Free Education including University - A decent mostly free health system, health care insurance - unemployment insurance so your life does not completely unravel if you are made redundant and others are dependent on your salary - elderly care insurance - child care (could be better) - police that is not completely reduced to the absolute minimum - infrastructure that mostly works

All of this is not perfect by any means, but you do have the feeling to get something back for your deductions. YMMV In some other even well developed countries it often feels like public services run on a shoestring and are just enough not to collapse.

And some public services are in my opinion easier achieved if the state runs them, like infrastructure, transport, health and welfare services or police/security. You can go with private services and the lowest bidder but my feeling is that’s a downward spiral of what you get out of it in the end.

So if you feel you get adequate services or services that otherwise are difficult to achieve I think it’s ok to have a higher salary deduction. Obviously this is a quite subjective subject, not one sock fits all.

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