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Some stuff I found interesting about number theory research

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Re: Some stuff I found interesting about number theory research

#21

I wonder if they have the equivalent the engineers who bemoan the fact that some React developers make functioning websites without “knowing anything about how CPUs or memory models work”. Bourbaki was a thing so probably. And we know the joke about Bourbaki and Lang. Though the reference is diminished by the latter’s relationship with the former.

It’s higher than that. People build software calling .search() and .sort() after a 4 month nanodegree and don’t know how to implement either. I’d say they are even using http requests without knowing what a TCP socket connection is, maybe even what an http request header is. The barrier to entry in the dev world is extremely low. To relate it to maths: It would be equivalent to someone doing math research without kno…

Lack of gatekeeping and general accessibility of software development is the beauty of this profession.

Re: Some stuff I found interesting about number theory research

#22

I wonder if they have the equivalent the engineers who bemoan the fact that some React developers make functioning websites without “knowing anything about how CPUs or memory models work”. Bourbaki was a thing so probably. And we know the joke about Bourbaki and Lang. Though the reference is diminished by the latter’s relationship with the former.

I'm afraid I don't know the joke about Bourbaki and Lang, could you please share it?

I do have a possibly relevant joke: A math student asks his professor how to visualize a result in 7-dimensional space. The professor responds: "It's easy. I visualize the result in n-dimensional space, then simply take n = 7."

Re: Some stuff I found interesting about number theory research

#23
post #22

I wonder if they have the equivalent the engineers who bemoan the fact that some React developers make functioning websites without “knowing anything about how CPUs or memory models work”. Bourbaki was a thing so probably. And we know the joke about Bourbaki and Lang. Though the reference is diminished by the latter’s relationship with the former.

I'm afraid I don't know the joke about Bourbaki and Lang, could you please share it? I do have a possibly relevant joke: A math student asks his professor how to visualize a result in 7-dimensional space. The professor responds: "It's easy. I visualize the result in n-dimensional space, then simply take n = 7."

https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/j569y/can_someone_exp...

Re: Some stuff I found interesting about number theory research

#24
post #5

This is quite interesting, especially since one of the major objections to computer-aided proofs has that they are more difficult for humans to understand. Common wisdom has been that proof techniques matter more than the results, but if human-authored proofs are no longer being inspected, it seems like it's just a matter of time before computer-aided proofs take over. I wonder how long it will be before proof assist…

I think it will be quite some time yet. As a researcher, my objection to computer-aided proofs is not that they're hard to read -- you would of course write a human readable version to go with it -- but rather that they're extremely time-consuming to write. (And writing papers is hard enough already.)

A typical research paper is written at a very high level; often steps in the argument will assume the reader is also a skilled mathematician, and invite them to fill in the lower-level details themselves. This reasoning is as much intuitive as it is formal; I suspect it will be a while before proof assistants are as intelligent as the typical reader of a mathematics paper.

I think there's an outside perspective that if math isn't 100% logically verified, it's worthless, which doesn't really match up with my own experience. Most results rely more on the intuition of the authors than on the precise logic they write down; thus the surprising result that papers with logical gaps are, very often, still correct.

Re: Some stuff I found interesting about number theory research

#26

What really jazzes me here is this: > "(People learn this stuff via the number theory gossip grapevine apparently?)" With the panoply of dev-oriented social platforms I find it curious that – to my knowledge – nobody who's studied Number Theory, Category Theory, Set Theory, etc. have established a kind of social network for sharing ideas formally. Between LaTeX for Markdown and the limitless Compsci-leaning Maths exp…

There is mathoverflow.net and its meta site as math researcher hangouts, plus ncatlab.org for category theory, and various sites, blogs, mailing lists etc. for other fields. You might also like Bill Thurston's famous article "On Proof and Progress in Mathematics", which says not so much that math is social, but that human mathematicians want personal understanding of mathematical truths. So black box computer-checked…

A little offtopic:

It's telling how you can tell the article was written by a mathematician, apart from the obvious fact that it's about mathematics. I'm talking about the structure. For example:

"How do mathematicians prove theorems? This question introduces an interesting topic, but to start with it would be to project two hidden assumptions:

(1) that there is uniform, objective and firmly established theory and practice of mathematical proof, and

(2) that progress made by mathematicians consists of proving theorems"

It reminds me of a joke I was told by my math teacher when I was at school about how mathematics shapes your thought (I may do a poor translation):

An air balloon traveller encounters very dense mist and gets lost and so is forced to descend to the ground, where he finds a guy taking a walk. The traveller asks the guy "Excuse me sir, could you tell me where am I?" The guy, after a very long pause answers "You are on a balloon". The traveller smiles and says "You are obviously a mathematician". "How do you know?" asks the guy to which the traveller replies. "Easy, there are three very good reasons. The first one is that you took a long time to answer, obviously considering just the facts and proceeding with strict logic. The second one is because the precision of your answer. And last but not least because your answer is useless"

Re: Some stuff I found interesting about number theory research

#27

I wonder if they have the equivalent the engineers who bemoan the fact that some React developers make functioning websites without “knowing anything about how CPUs or memory models work”. Bourbaki was a thing so probably. And we know the joke about Bourbaki and Lang. Though the reference is diminished by the latter’s relationship with the former.

It’s higher than that. People build software calling .search() and .sort() after a 4 month nanodegree and don’t know how to implement either. I’d say they are even using http requests without knowing what a TCP socket connection is, maybe even what an http request header is. The barrier to entry in the dev world is extremely low. To relate it to maths: It would be equivalent to someone doing math research without kno…

These devs don't need to. As long as they get work done, create `value', their skills are sufficient. Admittedly, there are times when people who know better are needed for specific tasks and that's why we are paid better.

Proof by induction is more akin to for-loop than optimized sort algorithms. It's often taught in the first mathematics course that includes proofs which can be Calculus II or even Linear Algebra. I would be surprised if a Math student did not learn it by their first Analysis course.

Re: Some stuff I found interesting about number theory research

#28

One of my takeaways: When I see "stitch together black boxes," to me that says that aspects of academic math are becoming similar to opportunistic software development. When such an effect happens in group psychology it is typically part of the "grounding" effect happening. There is a high supply of theory without the energy to go into analyzing so many individual black boxes anymore, and a correspondingly high deman…

I think the reason for this black-boxing in software and mathematics is quite different.

In top-level mathematics its that you have no choice but to treat results as black-boxes because the complexity otherwise is just too high. Its the only way forward, and mathematicians would prefer not to take this approach.

In software development, black-boxing is a way of accelerating development. It allows people to abstract away and disregard complexities. And it allows re-using big works. It comes at the cost of some integration losses and performance losses. But, since they are not at the complexity limit, software developers can dive into their black boxes if required for performance or other reasons.

Re: Some stuff I found interesting about number theory research

#29
post #19

In a book on mathematics by Alex Bellos he says that any contemporary cutting-edge research mathematics paper can be understood by no more than 100 mathematicians. The field is getting bigger and bigger and there are less and less mathematicians that have background knowledge sufficient to _understand_it much less critique it. The bar for the word 'understand' may be much higher in mathematics compared to other field…

That sounds like something that'd be true for every field, not just math. The nature of anything that's cutting edge means very few people will have looked at it yet let alone actually understood it.

I agree that the number of people that can understand a cutting-edge paper will be low. But, in CS for example, the number will be much higher than 100. I would assume that it would be in the 1000's worldwide. Since, it isn't my field I could speculate that cutting-edge biology would be understood by a lot more than 100 persons.

Re: Some stuff I found interesting about number theory research

#30

In a book on mathematics by Alex Bellos he says that any contemporary cutting-edge research mathematics paper can be understood by no more than 100 mathematicians. The field is getting bigger and bigger and there are less and less mathematicians that have background knowledge sufficient to _understand_it much less critique it. The bar for the word 'understand' may be much higher in mathematics compared to other field…

Not really.

There's 'understand', and 'believe you understand', and in other fields (say, software engineering...) you meet lots of people who think they understand, when they don't. I also think that in the SE case, because it's more 'relatable' ('look at my website') , people generally assume more easily that they understand when they don't.

Also if you look at theoretical comp sci results (calculability theory, etc) , or even complex software engineering systems (actual working distributed systems, etc) , I very much doubt that many people (apart from the people who designed and wrote them, and who may even be wrong about them! ) can _actually_ claim to understand them fully. You will understand, to some extent, the 'theorem' (ie the system), but the implementation will remain a black box.

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