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Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

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Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#121

A good addition might be to point out good first guesses for the vowels in non-English names (Examples used assume a General American accent): * "A" as in "ah" (like "ah, I see") * "E" as in "e" in "pet", or the "ai" in "pain" * "I" as in the "i" in "pit" or the "ea" in "peat" * "O" as in the "o" in "cot" or the "o" in "cone" * "U" as in the "u" in "put" or the "oo" in "doom" (Americans might notice that this approxi…

Also known as "pronouncing Latin alphabet vowels as in Latin" :)

I like how English managed to offset for his relatively simple grammar by totally destroying its spelling. The whole fact that things like "spelling bees" can exist was very hard to grasp to me as a kid watching stuff dubbed in Italian.

Seven years old me was always very confused by why the kids in TV shows were rewarded for knowing how to spell stuff, which is something every second grader can do in Italy for any arbitrary word. In Italian you just write things the way you hear them, and there's an almost 1:1 strong correspondence between written and spoken language. If you don't know how to write something, you also don't know how to say it.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#122
post #78

Because of categorical perception (as defined on the https://dictionary.apa.org/categorical-perception page), there's no general agreement on the "correct" way to pronounce a non-English name within English communication to a mostly English speaking audience. Some people argue that the right approach is to always use the closest equivalents within the English phonemic inventory. In this view, it's incorrect to sudden…

This is very reasonable. But I wonder if there is a word (in any language) for the pointless pleasure of saying a foreign word in the foreign language pronunciation.

And for the pleasure of observing someone mistakenly do so. How many Pauls build a Les Paul?

For my part, even my two syllable first name can be hard for Anglophones, though they are usually very eager to learn how to say it (people are usually very kind). I Postel principle the shit out of it, anyway.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always aimed at "ngwen" although as a native English speaker I'm still not great at starting words with "ng" despite years of trying. It's more common in Australia than most western countries as a lot of Aboriginal words use it so we have it in place names, such as "Ngunawal" an area near Canberra. On TV (since we have a few celebrities named Nguyen) they just wuss out and tend to go with "Win"

I'm Vietnamese, but I never figured out a good way to teach people pronouncing "ng" until a recent vocal lesson, so I'll give it a try here. When you say "Go", you'll find the back of your tongue make a quick contact with the roof of your mouth to make the "k" consonant. If you try to gradually slow that down, keeping your tongue touching the roof for longer, and tone down the edge in "k", and you'll get "ng". And ho…

Yes, "g" and "ng" both involve the back of your tongue contacting the roof of your mouth. (Technically, that area of the roof of your mouth is the "velum", and they are called "velar" consonants.)

The difference is that, with "g", the flow of air is out from your mouth (and the "g" interrupts that flow, which is why a "g" sound cannot be held), whereas with "ng", the flow of air is out from your nose (which is why a "ng" sound can be held indefinitely).

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#124
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it isn't a valid syllable in the orthography rules. Pinyin has a set of syllable onsets and a set of rimes. You determine the spelling of a syllable by choosing the onset/rime combination you want and looking it up in a table. Thus, the spelling of n-/-ü is "nü", and the spelling of ∅-/-ü is "yu". Same syllable column; zero characters in common in the spelling. And if you look up ch-/-ing, the table will tell you…

So by your definition, are "biang", "kiang" and "duang" valid pinyin, considering those are pronounceable and understandable to millions of people, though they don't appear in your table?

Not being defined by "the Pinyin system", they cannot be valid elements of the Pinyin system.

I know that biang is the name of a particular noodle; I'm not aware of kiang; and I believe that duang is a sound Jackie Chan made once. Which leads into a tangential question -- "duang" has no meaning. What would it mean to say it is "understandable" to millions of people?

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#125
post #8

"Non-English" -> Mainland Chinese. Well, it's a start I guess. Probably worth adding Vietnamese considering how few people in the US know how to pronounce "Nguyen".

Ng is a sound most Americans cannot make, including myself.

I just say 'wen' now, which is a step up from my initial 'engooyin'.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the official transliteration into the Roman alphabet leads to less accuracy in pronunciation than some other (for example see the second vs third columns in the table in TFA), then would it not make better sense to adopt a more accurate transliteration instead? Can't be done. The Roman alphabet is a pretty good alphabet for Latin, but it isn't for Chinese, which has different sounds than are in Latin (or English…

Is there a resource (maybe with sound samples) that expands on the voiced/unvoiced vs aspirated/unaspirated distinction? It sounds fascinating, but I'm struggling to conceptualize it just with the text here.

The Wikipedia articles on it might be approachable for a layperson with no particular background. I studied some linguistics in university and it's a hobby interest so I can't really judge that anymore. The articles have plenty of sound examples. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_consonant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_(phonetics)

English actually has all the relevant sounds in most dialects so I will try to explain in it reference to that. Most English dialects have environments where consonants are reliably aspirated, or not, depending on their voicing and surrounding environment. Unvoiced stops (p/t/k) in isolation "pat" or "cap" are moderately aspirated. Voiced stops (b/d/g) are not like "dog" or "bad". (Leaning on this pattern as a partial hack using a feature common in a lot of European languages, is why p and b are what they are in Pinyin, and many other Chinese romanizations.)

In principle, if your dialect does not have a length contrast for /æ/ after a voiced consonant (many do though including mine, making the vowel longer in that environment, so you'll have to try to say them with equal vowel length) then "pap" and "bab" (to rhyme with cap and cat) when whispered (no vocal chord movement, so all equally unvoiced) should be differentiated only by aspiration similar to Mandarin's p/b difference. Though aspiration is Mandarin is a bit more forceful.

As an aside, most people can hear the difference between those words when whispered, hearing a voiced or unvoiced consonant, based solely on the aspiration hint. Phonetic interpretation is a strange and subtle thing. And voicing in Mandarin? It plays the inferior role to aspiration's main starring role, a role reversal of the English arrangement.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#127

It always puzzles me how little knowledge of foreign languages the average English native speaker has. Every time I hear an English speaker trying to pronounce Italian or Spanish words it generally ends up in a complete disaster (especially Italian). For instance, lots of folks haven't realized that the Great Vowel Shift happened, and so try to pronounce vowels as in English, without realizing that 99% of cases, that…

I’d be interested in some examples for both, if you could!

I’m a stupid/ignorant English speaker, because I only know English and German so can’t pronounce Italian intuitively.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#128

It always puzzles me how little knowledge of foreign languages the average English native speaker has. Every time I hear an English speaker trying to pronounce Italian or Spanish words it generally ends up in a complete disaster (especially Italian). For instance, lots of folks haven't realized that the Great Vowel Shift happened, and so try to pronounce vowels as in English, without realizing that 99% of cases, that…

You're making some very broad generalizations, which is why you are puzzled IMO.

Firstly, "English speakers" includes many people who speak multiple languages. Technically, English speakers also includes people who are non-native English speakers, who by definition know another language.

Secondly, there are many native English speakers who speak a second language, or who are at least exposed enough to second languages to know how they sound. For example, many states in the United States have a very large Hispanic population, parts of Canada have people who speak both English and French, many people from England speak second languages (French is fairly common if I recall correctly).

I think who you're thinking of are only the native English-speaking people who are not much exposed to other languages. There is a fairly large population of these, because the United States is fairly large and has lots of areas that are surrounded by only English speakers (as opposed to most other countries in the world, whose neighbors speak another language). Of course if you're only looking at the subset of people who aren't exposed to another language, you'd expect to see them have little knowledge of foreign languages!

(Side note: I wonder if even this phenomenon is decreasing, given greater immigration, the Internet, foreign TV/Movies being more available/popular, etc.)

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#129
I appreciate the effort, but I don't like this attitude of blaming the speaker. My company once even had a video saying that mispronouncing a name was a 'microaggression.' That insanity aside, there are sounds and consonants people just cannot make past a certain age. As long as we aren't being demeaning, why go for perfection? Nearly every foreigner pronounces the short 'i' in my name as 'ee', and I've never once cared enough to be upset or attempt to correct them.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "A" as in the "au" in "caught" Not an expert, but I can't offhand think of a language where this is even approximately how a is pronounced—which ones are you thinking of?

Apparently there's a subset of American-English speakers that would pronounce "caught" as "kaat". I've always heard it like a longer/smoother "cot" though. I'd say a good first guess is the "a" in "about" instead.

In southern English English, it rhymes with the number 0 (nought).
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