Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers • Hacker News Board

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#71

Post by cabalamat » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 2:08 AM UTC

prvc wrote: post #40

One thing that has puzzled me about complaints about English speakers' pronunciation of transliterated Chinese words (the only topic of TFA), is why the speaker is blamed rather than the transliteration. If the official transliteration into the Roman alphabet leads to less accuracy in pronunciation than some other (for example see the second vs third columns in the table in TFA), then would it not make better sense f…

> If the official transliteration into the Roman alphabet leads to less accuracy in pronunciation than some other (for example see the second vs third columns in the table in TFA), then would it not make better sense to adopt a more accurate transliteration instead?

Can't be done. The Roman alphabet is a pretty good alphabet for Latin, but it isn't for Chinese, which has different sounds than are in Latin (or English).

For example, stop consonants in English have a voiced-unvoiced distinction: /p b t d k g/

Latin is similar: /p b t d k g kw gw/

Chinese is totally different. Instead of a voiced-unvoiced distinction, it has aspirated-unaspirated: /p ph t th k kh/ (with the h denoting an aspirated stop).

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#72

Post by tasogare » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 2:11 AM UTC

sverhagen wrote: post #46

prvc wrote: post #40

One thing that has puzzled me about complaints about English speakers' pronunciation of transliterated Chinese words (the only topic of TFA), is why the speaker is blamed rather than the transliteration. If the official transliteration into the Roman alphabet leads to less accuracy in pronunciation than some other (for example see the second vs third columns in the table in TFA), then would it not make better sense f…

I find the title misleading, as the link is only covering Chinese. But the same problem exists with other languages that are already using the "Roman alphabet". So, with that in mind, what makes you think the transliteration should be optimized for English? :)

Yeah, I was kind of blueballed by the page. Maybe the author expected pull requests for other languages?

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#73

Post by bdon » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 2:13 AM UTC

legerdemain wrote: post #70

hermannj314 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am no expert, I asked the same question. It seems this system is the Pinyin system common to mainland China, there are other transliteration systems used in Taiwan (Bopomofo) and Wade-Giles (which seems to create more phonetically obvious transliterations). This link has a nice table in the symbology section. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo

Bopomofo is not a transliteration system. It's a phonetic spelling system used to teach reading to young children in Taiwanese schools. The characters it uses are not meaningful outside of Taiwan.

There are plenty of other uses of Bopomofo: 1) as a faster electronic input method for Mandarin and other Chinese languages 2) in casual or abbreviated writing 3) in overseas education

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#74

Post by robocat » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 2:15 AM UTC

At least English speakers often try to pronounce names correctly, for example celebrities and well known sports stars. Not that we always succeed, and many people don’t care! Bach, Cézzane, Jesus, Jahn etcetera.

I notice Spanish people don’t seem to try, I think in part because there is a one-to-one correspondence between words and pronunciation in Spanish. The common Spanish pronunciation of Michael Jackson is unintelligible to a native English speaker for example. Pirata Drake was another I didn’t recognise, but should have.

If I had more examples of the pronunciation of pinyin names, I would naturally start to pronounce those names more correctly given pinyin.

I suspect many native English speakers grok some of the rules associated with foreign languages without specific training.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#75

Post by tasogare » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 2:16 AM UTC

koyote wrote: post #31

> For example, in the US, many families that immigrated many years ago have changed the way their name was pronounced from its original heritage pronunciation As a native German and French speaker, this is actually an issue for me. If I see a common German or French name, I do not actually know how it would be pronounced in English and it's very difficult for me to guess or get my head to think of that pronunciation…

Except for obvious cases I go for the French or Alsatian pronunciation and let the person correct me. This is what English speakers are doing too after all. Conversely I don't take it personally when people mispronounce my names (given and family) the first time, especially since the family name is problematic even in France. That being said, it pisses me to no end when someone doesn't make any efforts after a given period of time (like my thesis director who still mispronounce it after 3 years, or can't align few letters properly).

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#76

Post by prvc » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 2:18 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #69

prvc wrote: post #40

One thing that has puzzled me about complaints about English speakers' pronunciation of transliterated Chinese words (the only topic of TFA), is why the speaker is blamed rather than the transliteration. If the official transliteration into the Roman alphabet leads to less accuracy in pronunciation than some other (for example see the second vs third columns in the table in TFA), then would it not make better sense f…

Pinyin is pretty close. At least it's predictable. Wade-Giles is way off -well, I guess it was based off Cantonese? In any case, my pet peeve is people expecting speakers of English to accommodate foreign sounds, but not extending the same ask to foreign speakers who often mangle English name sounds just as much. I say just let them say it however they know how and let it be. I don't mind if they can't pronounce my n…

>But back to pinyin, that was intended as an alphabetic alternative for native Chinese speakers to use instead of pictogram/characters. So it's audience wasn't foreign language speakers and thus will have shortcomings for them.

Yes that makes sense, and is reasonable. But the expectation for all foreigners to be familiar with it is not.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#77

Post by dhosek » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 2:22 AM UTC

koyote wrote: post #31

> For example, in the US, many families that immigrated many years ago have changed the way their name was pronounced from its original heritage pronunciation As a native German and French speaker, this is actually an issue for me. If I see a common German or French name, I do not actually know how it would be pronounced in English and it's very difficult for me to guess or get my head to think of that pronunciation…

I generally go with a native pronunciation unless told otherwise. So I would pronounce it John Dubwah, but I've learned that it's W.E.B. Du-boys.

But the single most important thing to do is ask how to pronounce and keep trying to get it right. My wife's first name is a Mexican name with an ll in the middle that should be pronounced as j/y (most Spanish speakers don't really hear a difference between the two English phonemes so it's perfectly fine to use either in working towards the correct sound, but j is probably the better choice for most English speakers since y between vowels tends to disappear, at least in Midwestern pronunciation). It's really not a hard name to say, but it does take paying attention for one whole second and remembering something that's not in the standard repertoire of American first names so a huge number of people get it wrong and don't care or say things like, "can I call you — instead?" (the answer, of course, is NO, what the — is wrong with you, you lazy twit).

Take the time to learn how people pronounce their names and give them the courtesy of getting it right. I doubt that most Croats, for example, will care if you don't pronounce č and ć differently, but if you insist on pretending that either makes a k or s sound, you will annoy them.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#78

Post by pledess » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 2:25 AM UTC

Because of categorical perception (as defined on the https://dictionary.apa.org/categorical-perception page), there's no general agreement on the "correct" way to pronounce a non-English name within English communication to a mostly English speaking audience. Some people argue that the right approach is to always use the closest equivalents within the English phonemic inventory. In this view, it's incorrect to suddenly shift English speech into the phonemic inventory of a name's origin. Listeners, on average, simply can't and won't hear the name consistently, and thus communication is less effective. The opposite view is that this is just another example of cultural arrogance, and it's best to shift out of the English phonemic inventory whenever that's reasonably possible. (For example, in this view, the shift should occur when a name is part of news coverage, and the speaker had an opportunity to learn the phonemes of the original language in advance.)

This isn't specific to English: it's the general question of whether a speaker should always stay within the phonemic inventory of the communication's main language.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#79

Post by golemiprague » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 2:25 AM UTC

There are so many combinations of native speaker of language x pronouncing a name in language y, not only Americans and Chinese. It is a waste of time and effort trying to learn all those combinations. Much easier to just not be too sensitive when someone misspell it, most people will be polite enough to adjust it if someone feel the need to correct them, which is usually when they develop more than a one time anecdotal encounter.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#80

Post by dhosek » Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 2:27 AM UTC

robocat wrote: post #74

At least English speakers often try to pronounce names correctly, for example celebrities and well known sports stars. Not that we always succeed, and many people don’t care! Bach, Cézzane, Jesus, Jahn etcetera. I notice Spanish people don’t seem to try, I think in part because there is a one-to-one correspondence between words and pronunciation in Spanish. The common Spanish pronunciation of Michael Jackson is unint…

It varies. The American practice is generally to try and get it horribly wrong. The English practice is to try to get it horribly wrong. In Byron's poem Don Juan, the title character's name is pronounced Don Jew-on. This is, of course, just one example of many.

Assuming you're speaking of Spanish speakers from Spain (and not Latin America), they may be reacting to the customary mangling of Spanish by their UK counterparts. Most of the Latin Americans I've met have no problem with English names. They may say them with some odd vowels on occasion, but they're no unintelligible. It could be heavy exposure to American media.