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Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

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Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#41

Question for someone knowledgeable - why doesn't Chinese transliteration make rational use of vowels and consonants? Why Q? Why not simply 'Ch'?

Because the standard transliteration used for Mandarin (pinyin) already has a CH. Q sounds similar, but not identical to CH. Similar enough that "just pronounce Q as CH" is ok advice, different enough to make a huge difference when actually speaking Mandarin.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#42

Question for someone knowledgeable - why doesn't Chinese transliteration make rational use of vowels and consonants? Why Q? Why not simply 'Ch'?

I am no expert, I asked the same question.

It seems this system is the Pinyin system common to mainland China, there are other transliteration systems used in Taiwan (Bopomofo) and Wade-Giles (which seems to create more phonetically obvious transliterations).

This link has a nice table in the symbology section. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#44
post #40

One thing that has puzzled me about complaints about English speakers' pronunciation of transliterated Chinese words (the only topic of TFA), is why the speaker is blamed rather than the transliteration. If the official transliteration into the Roman alphabet leads to less accuracy in pronunciation than some other (for example see the second vs third columns in the table in TFA), then would it not make better sense f…

Pinyin was not designed as a system for making it easier for English speakers to pronounce Chinese, but as a way for native Chinese speakers to write their own language. During the early years of the revolution in China, there were proposals of various levels of seriousness to ditch characters entirely in favor of a Latin script like pinyin, and this actually happened in Vietnam.

Wade-Giles, an earlier system of transliterating Chinese, was designed more with English speakers in mind, but suffered from a number of problems of its own, particularly requiring apostrophes all over the place.

And in Japan you can still see two competing systems duking it out, with the Japanese-for-Japanese Kunrei system ("Huzi") officially anointed as standard but in practice the Japanese-for-Americans Hepburn ("Fuji") being far more common.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#45
Four points for Italian:

1. Vowels are like in Spanish ("a" always sounds "ah" etc.)

2. The group "ch" sounds like a "k" sound, e.g. bruschetta is "broos-keh-tah"

3. The groups "gl" and "gn" sound like Spanish "ll" and "ñ" respectively. Those are hard to pronounce for English speakers, the easy shortcut is just imagine that the "g" is silent and that the "l" or "n" are a bit more pronounced.

4. Double consonants need to have a much more pronounced sound, almost as if you pause for a moment on that consonant. It should be easy to tell apart "nonno" ("grandpa") and "nono" ("ninth")

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#46
post #40

One thing that has puzzled me about complaints about English speakers' pronunciation of transliterated Chinese words (the only topic of TFA), is why the speaker is blamed rather than the transliteration. If the official transliteration into the Roman alphabet leads to less accuracy in pronunciation than some other (for example see the second vs third columns in the table in TFA), then would it not make better sense f…

I find the title misleading, as the link is only covering Chinese. But the same problem exists with other languages that are already using the "Roman alphabet". So, with that in mind, what makes you think the transliteration should be optimized for English? :)

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#47

Question for someone knowledgeable - why doesn't Chinese transliteration make rational use of vowels and consonants? Why Q? Why not simply 'Ch'?

Chinese has (at least) two different sounds that map to "Ch" in English. Pinyin has both a "Ch" and a "Q" to capture this nuance. Of course, when you translate it to native English phonemes that difference is lost.

You can listen here:

https://dictionary.hantrainerpro.com/chinese-english/transla...

https://dictionary.hantrainerpro.com/chinese-english/transla...

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#48
post #40

One thing that has puzzled me about complaints about English speakers' pronunciation of transliterated Chinese words (the only topic of TFA), is why the speaker is blamed rather than the transliteration. If the official transliteration into the Roman alphabet leads to less accuracy in pronunciation than some other (for example see the second vs third columns in the table in TFA), then would it not make better sense f…

The goal of pinyin was not to make Mandarin words pronounceable to English speakers, but to be a consistent means of representing the sounds of Mandarin to Mandarin speakers.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#49

A great idea, and useful not just for English speakers. My French background doesn’t make me any better at pronouncing Chinese names!

> My French background doesn’t make me any better at pronouncing Chinese names!

It would have, back when the sound currently written "r" was written "j" instead.

Re: Pronouncing non-English names for English speakers

#50
post #40

One thing that has puzzled me about complaints about English speakers' pronunciation of transliterated Chinese words (the only topic of TFA), is why the speaker is blamed rather than the transliteration. If the official transliteration into the Roman alphabet leads to less accuracy in pronunciation than some other (for example see the second vs third columns in the table in TFA), then would it not make better sense f…

Maybe it's transliterated for a more Latin-like crowd where vowels have exactly one pronunciation, like in languages like Spanish, where reading the second columns as they'd naturally think to, would likely be 95% OK
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