A Victoria man has gone two decades without money • Hacker News Board

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#281

Post by mikem170 » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 9:55 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #64

guerrilla wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate arguments like this. People who want clean dishes will do dishes. And no there's no free-rider problem because they don't have to do dishes for anyone else.

> People who want clean dishes will do dishes. And people who want to eat will farm their own food? And people who want medicine will craft their own medications? Self-sufficiency and moneyless societies are pure fantasy, unless they include giving up all modern amenities. I don’t think these people really want to return to the days of hunter gatherer lifestyles or even the days of homesteading. It’s an extreme amoun…

> I don’t think these people really want to return to the days of hunter gatherer lifestyles or even the days of homesteading.

Some people do, but we pretty much made it illegal.

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#282

Post by TheRealPomax » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 10:03 PM UTC

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #111

Aeolun wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the post money society doesn’t need philosopher poets scavenging cigarettes from trash cans Supporting the odd philosopher poet is the exact function of society, in my opinion. Some good things come out of having them that do not come out of having another corporate drone.

> Supporting the odd philosopher poet is the exact function of society, in my opinion. Have you considered that society should also be the natural predator of the odd philosopher poet so that their numbers do not become problematic for their environment?

Why would society need to even be a predator though? The whole point of society is that we organized into large enough groups that what the "natural order" was no longer applies: societies literally rise above the natural order by replacing that order with something we as society control.

That means things like corporations, and working hard for your money, but also means things like "meaningless art", and allowing people with permanent disabilities to still live a normal life, where the fruits of society get to be enjoyed by everyone in society, skewed towards different demographics based on your favourite -ism. And it doesn't matter which -ism you subscribe to: the whole point of society is that we don't need this ridiculous "natural" nonsense. We beat it. It can stay outside. We replaced it with society.

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#283

Post by carl_sandland » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

Really interesting discussion here; it's heartening to feel the underlying desire by commentators to find effective moral principles. It strikes me that what we have now has evolved into an economic/money system that is complex, dynamic and probably the "least worst" we can achieve. We do live together in a miracle. I'm happy we still have space for monastic energies to survive.

I do fear the coming resource scarcity and slowing tech adaption rate.

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#284

Post by mikem170 » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

kypro wrote: post #16

I don't see how taking from everyone and giving very little in return is moral. If everyone did this we'd all live in a far worse world. This is basically the antithesis of my own moral code to give more than I receive. I relate to him in that I value money very little as a medium to facilitate my own happiness, but I still want to make a lot of it so I can give more. He seems sweet though. I think I would get on wit…

> I don't see how taking from everyone and giving very little in return is moral.

Taking? It seemed pretty clear that he doesn't ask anyone for anything. People give him things of their own free will.

> This is basically the antithesis of my own moral code to give more than I receive.

Give more money than you receive? There are other things that can be given, like time, companionship, love, etc.

The guy from the article is striving to make the world better for those who can't afford a home in Canada (Vancouver being ridiculously expensive, a separate conversation), and prompting an interesting conversation about how focused we are on money. I think those are valuable contributions to society.

Or should society force everyone onto the same page, and moralize against those who can't or don't want to keep up?

(These are questions that I think of, just throwing them out there...)

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#285

Post by samatman » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 10:12 PM UTC

mikem170 wrote: post #261

samatman wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money in a broad sense is as old as anatomically modern humans, so, no. 80,000 year old grave goods have been discovered, consisting of shells of a consistent size, with holes drilled in them, a few hundred kilometers from the ocean. We know from ethnography of societies which existed until very recently that these collectibles served the same purpose as money. A good complement to Graeber's book is the work of Nick…

But the first source you quoted, the Atlantic article [0], quotes Graeber describing economies which don't depend on money or barter: > Communities of Iroquois Native Americans, for instance, stockpiled their goods in longhouses. Female councils then allocated the goods, explains Graeber. Other indigenous communities relied on “gift economies,” which went something like this: If you were a baker who needed meat, you…

> Communities of Iroquois Native Americans

Had wampum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wampum

Which was absolutely used as trade goods between Iroquois bands, between the Iroquois and other natives, and between the Iroquois and settler colonialists. Standardized trade goods, portable and of a broadly recognized value: in other words, money.

Money which was good enough that the English, being kept short of coin by the Crown, adopted it for their own internal trade. Leading to the expression "shelling out", and the slang term "clams" for the dollar.

Single Iroquois bands may not have done much if any internal trade, but the same is true of my nuclear family. I would expect some wampum changed hands for things like marriages, though I don't have a source on that and it might not be true in this specific case.

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#286

Post by mikem170 » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 10:26 PM UTC

nootropicat wrote: post #91

Alternative title: a bum glamorizes his parasitic lifestyle. Money is one of many solutions designed to allocate resources on a large scale. Of course, there are others, but he doesn't propose any alternative system. He's just a parasite. A pre-industrial society most likely wouldn't be able to support his existence so easily and he would either starve to death or start working.

> He's just a parasite.

He's less of a parasite than many rich people! I'm thinking of those who are nothing better than rentiers and/or running cartels, commandeering common resources for their own profits, accumulating money for themselves at the expense of society, who glamorize materialism and moralize hard work because that's what keeps the money rolling in from the plebes, and having the support of the government to keep them on top.

They seem to be have done, and are doing, way more harm to our society than this guy.

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#287

Post by chmod600 » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 10:41 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #104

birdyrooster wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially given that men have taken on tasks far more dangerous and difficult than doing the dishes and have always died sooner. https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/why-men-often-die-earlie...

This is kind of complicated, because men die sooner even if they don't do dangerous tasks. And in contemporary communes, there pretty often are not all that many super dangerous tasks to do. These communes dont have soldiers going into wars nor miners spending days in dust and dark. There used to be difference in terms of men drinking and smoking much more then women, but that is equalizing too. Basically, even if me…

"nor miners spending days in dust and dark"

Then how do they get metal?

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#288

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 10:42 PM UTC

henvic wrote: post #231

Thorncorona wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell if you are trying to be sarcastic so I will respond in good faith. > Why the hell can't I be free to move freely to a place where other people accept me? Why is it that a parasitic entity (the state) has to say whether they allow me in or not? Because when a community decides to provides services to a people it must now have standards to decide who to provide services too. There are only 2 possible ways…

> Because when a community decides to provides services to a people it must now have standards to decide who to provide services too. There are only 2 possible ways to solve this. So, if you're a spoiled brat lucky to be born in a developed country with socialist tendencies, you're fine. However, suppose you're unlucky and were born in a poor country and now want to migrate somewhere to improve your quality of life.…

[deleted]

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#289

Post by hellbannedguy » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 10:43 PM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #184

aunty_helen wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At best as a society itself, it's a drum circle, getting high, talking about the universe without doing anything much, and escaping. People have different values. Long ago we forgot that if it's not shown on mtv as something to aspire towards it's not the best pursuit of our time. All the best chasing that lambo you'll never afford whilst looking over your shoulder at others smart enough not to get into that game.

You're talking to someone who lived on the road for 10+ years and spent plenty of time in music circles on beaches discussing the nature of the universe. All of which came to very little. I don't work and earn to chase a new car. I do it to give my life meaning and to afford a good future for myself and my family. And yeah, I have every right to look down at the people who think they're being so smart by "not getting…

I have know a lot of homelessness.

In 99.99% of the cases, they weren't homeless by choice, or ideology.

But yes--most of them thought they were there by choice.

It must be some ego defense mechanism?

For some reason a disproportionate amount were former Programmers? I knew Jim Fox. He was a cocreator of Wordstar, but got zero credit. I watched him slip from employment to wearing a Penguin outfit playing a ukleee begging for change. We used to talk tech, and he would notice someone walking towards us. He would jump out, and do his dance. He was always positive. He once got a job. He went to Goodwill to buy a suit. (He thought he needed a suit for a startup.) He was fired a few days in. That whole cultural fit. He always used to tell me, I just hope I don't die of pneumonia in an alley. Well he didn't get his wish. He died homeless.

There is a saying amoung homeless, and it's this, "Homeless for a year, homeless for life."

Meaning the mind is gone after living like they do. I have watched our local police departments make there guys life more miserable for 30 years.

I'm glad you weren't an entrenched homeless person.

The homeless we have need help. Most are not their by choice if you get them to let their guard down.

I do have some hope in CA. The government might actually do something besides jaw boning about what needs to be done.

Besides long term shelter, I hear talk of safe places to park, and sleep, without getting a ticket, or worse?

Homeless in Dunphy Park, got tickets for not obeying a rule. The ticket was $500. The issuing officer told the IJ, fee is high because we know they won't ever pay it.

I just threw up my hands.

How is issuing a ticket that can eventually turn into a warrant helping out anyone?

I done. I'm starting to get angry. Homelessness has always been a sore spot for myself.

Re: A Victoria man has gone two decades without money

#290

Post by chmod600 » Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 10:44 PM UTC

mikem170 wrote: post #279

AussieWog93 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is not much coercion. The women gather berries and the men hunt. Are you sure about this, or are you treating a "noble savage" fantasy as if it were fact? I've read some early settler accounts of Australian Aboriginals, and they would beat the living shit out of the lower-status members of their society (especially women) on a regular basis. Sometimes the beatings would be followed up with rape, and the perpet…

Modern society has problems with violence and sex crimes against women, too.

The Better Angels of our Nature by Steven Pinker makes a compelling case that violence (including rape) are dramatically lower in modern societies all around the world.