Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

jacobinmag.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 271 posts

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#241

Post by prince781 »

dalbasal wrote: post #235
prince781 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alienation isn't a historical event. It's a term that describes how a human being, in the present, relates to the things he creates. The concept is simple: Most people today are put in the unusual position (anthropologically speaking) of creating things they do not themselves sell. From this flows a lot of consequences for social conflict, politics, mental health, etc, something we should try to understand.

Alienation is/was a term coined at a particular time. It was easy to understand at that time, because it was related to changes in the world that were happening. You didn't have to be a marxist to use it in a sentence. Today it is still used, because it's part of abstract theory, to which other abstract theory relates, in ways that are entirely meaningless outside of this theory. What's the non-alienated version of a…

The term remains easy to understand. Whether you agree/disagree with it is a separate matter.

> What's the non-alienated version of an amazon worker?

An Amazon worker that can exclusively determine who gets to be on the board of directors.

>> From this flows a lot of consequences for social conflict, politics, mental health, etc.

> Whether or not this was ever true, it was at least a legible statement 200 years ago. Today, it's a completely meaningless, mumbling piety.

Is your contention that alienation is _not_ one source (among many) of social conflict? Certainly history is not on your side here.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#242

Post by scotty79 »

ghaff wrote: post #226
Itsdijital wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a band aid to bridge the gap between the insane demand in HCOL areas and the inability to find labor in those markets. How can you staff a warehouse for $15/hr in places were a studio starts at $1250/mo? I wouldn't be one bit surprised of Amazon starts getting into real estate, offering employees monthly "rent vouchers".

Why wouldn't they just pay more? If they're giving you a rent voucher for an apartment whose market rate is $1250 a month, normally that would show up as income on your W2. https://www.thebalancesmb.com/when-is-employee-housing-taxab... There are cases like remote locations where an employer can provide housing tax-free but likely not near an expensive city.

They might issue voucher nominally for $1250. But redeem it for $1000.

So the landlords might decide if they want to not rent to Amazon employees or agree to take less from them but keep the high listing price for others.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#243

Post by DenisM »

_delirium wrote: post #193
DenisM wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>isn't this mainly because paying in anything other then the national currency is illegal in most western nations? I can offer you 10 chickens to dig a trench, nothing illegal about that. You'd have to pay income tax tho, and the IRS does not accept (fractions of) chickens.

As a one-off barter or contractor arrangement sure, but in the U.S., if you're paying anyone who'd be considered an employee, you have to pay at least minimum wage in cash or equivalent, except that you can deduct the cost of room and board if you provide it. Details: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/29/531.27

Good point, I did not know that.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#244

Post by taurath »

bzbarsky wrote: post #155
CydeWeys wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even better: Make it an employee discount of 50% off at Whole Foods for all Amazon employees, up to some monthly limit. If structured this way, would it even be taxable at all? I'm not aware of employee discounts being taxed.

In the US tax handling of employee discounts at least on physical goods is as follows: if the discount brings the price paid below cost, then the below-cost subsidy is treated as income received by the employee. Concrete example: Company sells widgets for $12, of which $2 is profit. Then as long as the employee price is at least $10 there are no tax implications for the employees. If it were $9 they would owe tax on…

I wonder how clearance items work with that.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#245

Post by dalbasal »

prince781 wrote: post #241
dalbasal wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alienation is/was a term coined at a particular time. It was easy to understand at that time, because it was related to changes in the world that were happening. You didn't have to be a marxist to use it in a sentence. Today it is still used, because it's part of abstract theory, to which other abstract theory relates, in ways that are entirely meaningless outside of this theory. What's the non-alienated version of a…

The term remains easy to understand. Whether you agree/disagree with it is a separate matter. > What's the non-alienated version of an amazon worker? An Amazon worker that can exclusively determine who gets to be on the board of directors. >> From this flows a lot of consequences for social conflict, politics, mental health, etc. > Whether or not this was ever true, it was at least a legible statement 200 years ago.…

It's my "contention" that alienation is a term, very abstract, not a discrete thing that can have consequences.

I contend that in the early 19th century, the term made for good rhetoric. IE, you could use it to describe the world and convey ideas. If it hadn't been coined then, but someone coined it now, it would be weak rhetoric. An uncompelling abstraction that doesn't describe anything, convince anyone or explain anything... like a joke that needs to be explained. No one would give it any attention. It's not even wrong, it's just irrelevant. Marx was wrong about lots of things, right about other things. He was rarely irrelevant though, at least until his later years.

I'd also point you to the fact that this kind of mumbo jumbo is why an amazon union vote failed a few weeks ago. The corporate culture BS that amazon (the point of this article) is teaching in schools now makes more sense and has more meaning to workers than the marxist theology that this article is written in. The present is not on your side.

I'll finally contend that a young Karl Marx himself would not be writing or talking like this, or reading Jacobin. He had new ideas, that made sense in his time. He got those ideas by observing the world, not arcane language written by some 15th century philosopher. That's what conservatives do. It ain't radical.

Workers don't want to hear about their alienation. They want a raise, dignity, childcare and a stake in the game. They don't want to be surveilled, or fired by an email generated by an NN.

>> The term remains easy to understand

The term is 100% unintelligible.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#246

Post by 8note »

aww_dang wrote: post #183
ilaksh wrote: post #105

The article ends with an idea like, "workers band together and fight Amazon". I'm all for workers getting a better deal and more humane conditions while these jobs last, but they won't. Th most common jobs in these places are being intensely researched by roboticists. As soon as it's feasible and economical to replace the people with robots they will. For some of the jobs, that could come in a matter of months, or on…

"Is Guaranteed Basic Income the Solution to Robots Taking Our Jobs?" https://mises.org/wire/guaranteed-basic-income-solution-robo... >The UBI advocates are correct that some jobs are replaced when capital goods do the work that was done by labor. Robots are a capital good. If the same amount of output can be produced by a mix of more robots and fewer people, an industry will not offer as much employment as before. Do…

There was another set of labourers before the industrial revolution - animals.

They don't have much work nowadays since their jobs in all industries were replaced with automation.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#247

Post by wincy »

claytoneast wrote: post #209
wincy wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine working at an Amazon center injured himself because he walks 5+ miles per shift. He also weighs like 350 pounds. He’s lost like 50 pounds already so hopefully he’ll get to a weight where he’s not injuring himself before he ends up having to quit. Amazon isn’t obligated to provide my morbidly obese friend with a job, and he knows that, and he’s doing his best to keep on without destroying his body.

I'm not sure how anyone could walk 5+ miles a shift @350lbs and not injure themself, unless they were that big from training for Strongman or the like. Humans are not meant to have that much fat.

I mean, agreed, and he has been injuring himself. He’s dieting and trying to slim down though. Guy used to work out and be really buff back when he was in the military but it seems like a good number of people once they get out no longer have the discipline to keep fit once you don’t have all the structure of military service.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#248

Post by prince781 »

dalbasal wrote: post #245
prince781 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term remains easy to understand. Whether you agree/disagree with it is a separate matter. > What's the non-alienated version of an amazon worker? An Amazon worker that can exclusively determine who gets to be on the board of directors. >> From this flows a lot of consequences for social conflict, politics, mental health, etc. > Whether or not this was ever true, it was at least a legible statement 200 years ago.…

It's my "contention" that alienation is a term, very abstract, not a discrete thing that can have consequences. I contend that in the early 19th century, the term made for good rhetoric. IE, you could use it to describe the world and convey ideas. If it hadn't been coined then, but someone coined it now, it would be weak rhetoric. An uncompelling abstraction that doesn't describe anything, convince anyone or explain…

> Workers don't want to hear about their alienation. They want a raise, dignity, childcare and a stake in the game. They don't want to be surveilled, or fired by an email generated by an NN.

All of those things are encompassed by a single word—alienation. They are all a consequence of a loss of control over your working life.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#249

Post by dalbasal »

prince781 wrote: post #248
dalbasal wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's my "contention" that alienation is a term, very abstract, not a discrete thing that can have consequences. I contend that in the early 19th century, the term made for good rhetoric. IE, you could use it to describe the world and convey ideas. If it hadn't been coined then, but someone coined it now, it would be weak rhetoric. An uncompelling abstraction that doesn't describe anything, convince anyone or explain…

> Workers don't want to hear about their alienation. They want a raise, dignity, childcare and a stake in the game. They don't want to be surveilled, or fired by an email generated by an NN. All of those things are encompassed by a single word—alienation. They are all a consequence of a loss of control over your working life.

Ah yes! The fact that workers find this shite meaningless is further proof that it's true. Of course all those things are encompassed by alienation. Alienation encompasses everything, because it doesn't mean anything. Thinking back on teenage me on may day. What an embarrassment. I'm done.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#250

Post by sergefaguet »

thethethethe wrote: post #231
sergefaguet wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I must have missed the point when unions became about voicing concerns. Last I recall, creating unions is an attempt at monopolizing labor to extort the employer. When this tactic is applied to any other factor of production it is called a “cartel” and engaged in “market manipulation.” How surprising that employers who pay above-market wages do not wish to be extorted further. All the modern propaganda s…

> Last I recall, creating unions is an attempt at monopolizing labor to extort the employer. When this tactic is applied to any other factor of production it is called a “cartel” and engaged in “market manipulation.” This seems like an argument in bad faith but I'll bite. You are ignoring the pre-existing power imbalance between employer and employee, where the employer holds authoritarian control of production and t…

I’m not ignoring this.

You are making the moral assumption that just because someone has a better negotiating position in a situation there is a moral obligation to intervene in some centralized way to “correct the imbalance.”

I am denying your assumption and presenting a different point of view which has no less of a claim to morality or truth than yours.

Post reply on HN